This years bit on gay history takes some guts to read all the way through.

Treatment of gays and lesbians in Nazi Germany:

http://homocaust.org/

One of the things that makes me particularly angry "Gays were treated with particular contempt not only the SS but also by many of the other inmates, who regarded them as degenerate perverts. Life in the camps was a solitary existence making it hard to survive mentally for any period of time. In the face of such hatred and degradation, it is no surprise that many committed suicide by running into electric perimeter fences rather than face ongoing persecution."

When Jews talk about being persecuted during WWII, I can only think: "During that time many Jews were, at the same time, both persecuted and persecutors." It is not what many Jews want to hear

Thank you MJ. It makes my heart ache. I knew all that, and it saddens me so much that so few know and so many more don't care.

That's one reason I love RFM. People here are evolved, loving and caring--for real.

Anyone reading it should definitely click on 'liberation' and read it. I know it was a different time but it's shocking.

Thank you, MJ, for not letting their "light go out." We all need to remember what happened before so we don't damn do it again!!!

We would be in a world of hurt if the extremists on either side of isle could seize total power. Don't think for a minute that concentration camps would not happen again. I look at how things are going now in this country and just realize the stupid public didn't learn a thing from World War II. Our neighbor when I was a kid was a holocaust survivor. I remember we went over to the jewish temple for a scouting project. We had to visit different churches and then write a report on what we learned about them. She warned us kids never to forget what can happen and warned us on how quickly it can roll in.

Who's going to be on the receiving end of the abuse all depends on what flavor of scumbag takes over. The right wing would certainly go after the gays but the left wing would have their own enemies as well and would be every bit as dangerous.

And what is a common response? Well basically, "both sides are the same!" BS. I just don't see the same level of hate coming from the gay side.

Sorry, but you simply can not paint away the hate from such DEVOUT Christians. And yes, it is the Christians that believe that religion plays an important part in their lives, the most DEVOUT Christians that are the problem.

It is time the likes of you stop trying to dismiss the hate.

He didn't say gays had the same level of hate. He said that radical leftist have the same level of hate as radical right wingers. Which we know has been historically true. Whenever either a socialist or a nationalist dictatorship comes to power in any country, there are plenty of enemies who are made to disappear.

He could not even supply a single example of where the "left" was preaching "Death to <insert group of people here>" and NEITHER HAVE YOU.

I on the other hand can post video after video of preachers preaching death to homosexuals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2n7vSPwhSU
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/31/curtis-knapp-kansas-pastor-death-of-gays-defense-cnn_n_1559293.html

Again, I was not talking about gays, I was talking about Left Wing extremist groups. Have you ever heard of Shining Path? What about the Cambodian death fields.

We are talking about hypothetical situations where the most extreme elements on either side come to power, not the general categories of politicians we get from the Republican or Democrat party.

I'm not talking about dictators in other countries, I'm talking about CHRISTIAN MINISTERS IN THE USA, NOW TODAY. I'm talking about a large section of CHRISTIANITY here in the USA now, TODAY.

Do you have any idea how insulting you are being?

Would you really to to a group of Jews talking about the Holocaust and say Jews are no different, they have their good guys and their bad guys?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2012 06:00PM by MJ.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not talking about dictators in other
> countries, I'm talking about CHRISTIAN MINISTERS
> IN THE USA, NOW TODAY. I'm talking about a large
> section of CHRISTIANITY here in the USA now,
> TODAY.
>
> Do you have any idea how insulting you are being?
>
>
> Would you really to to a group of Jews talking
> about the Holocaust and say Jews are no different,
> they have their good guys and their bad guys?


A large section? I doubt it. You can find any bad example you want. What you have to be careful is someone doesn't lead you down the road into generally demonizing a particular group of people and convince you we need to get rid of them because they are a menace. One trend I see in this country is people no longer are saying,"I hate what you say but you have the constitutional right to say it." Now we are being politically correct or even calling it hate speech and we want some authority figure to do something about it. It's a bit alarming when our own elected officials right now are saying we have the rights to everything and you citizens have no rights.

We are losing our right to peacefully assemble and protest the government and we are losing our right to speak freely. Think about it. Both sides are being played in this country against each other. I wouldn't put it past some scumbag organization to put a few antagonists out spouting hateful things just to set the other side off.

What I'm saying is think and don't react emotionally to some idiots and blow it all out of proportion. The powers that be don't want us to get along. Thy want to keep us divided along social issues we will never agree on. We need to focus on keeping our rights as citizens and not being jerked around by someone's game. You might not like what they are saying but at what cost are you willing to pay to shut them up? You have to realize if it can be done to them it can be done to you.

Also, you might want to include that idiot member of the Tennessee House of Representatives who wants to outlaw the teaching of anything about gays, or even using the word Gay in school. I am trying to be on your side, but I am also going to advise you against drawing lines in the sand between Republicans and Democrats. The future for Gay Rights is to convince people that tolerance of others is the true traditional value, not persecution of those who are different. To that end, stop trying to pick fights when they don't exist, and start trying to make new friends for the cause.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2012 05:43PM by forbiddencokedrinker.

You are not on my side of you are trying to dismiss the point I have been making by saying that gays are like other groups. In the context of this thread that statement implies that gays are like Nazis.

You may not understand because the threats are not directed at YOU and it is not YOUR life a stake. MINE IS.

It was people like me, not you, that were being persecuted by both the Nazis and the Jews.

It is people like me, not you, that could get beat to death because I hold hands with my lover.

Don't tell me what groups I am like and not alike.

And it is insulting that you used this thread about persecution of gays as a soap box to rage against the right wing when I and nobody else was making this about the RIGHT wing.

And if you want to be on my side, don't go spewing rumors that the Nazi leadership was a bunch of closet case homosexuals. If you have some solid evidence, fine, otherwise your little nazi rant was insulting.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2012 06:12PM by MJ.

Yup. Both sides have killed millions if you look at history. The right wing usually follow a religious agenda and start theocracies and the left wing start so called people's revolutions. The truth of the matter is there is little difference between the two. They both represent genocide, murder, war and tyranny. Both use masses of useful idiots who believe in whatever cause is being sold to them.

Would you walk up to a group of Jews discussing the Holocaust and say "both sides killed millions"?

Yeah, I think you might.

And no, my posting a person preaching that homosexuals should be put to death is not about making it about "sides". I think you are making this about "sides" because it is your "side" that is CURRENTLY, in the USA, preaching Genocide.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2012 04:48PM by Timothy.

You're talking about both the residents of the camps and the kapos who were eventually killed off as well, correct?

I quoted on article, I can find more. It is quite explicit, the Jews that were being persecuted were also persecuting the other captives those Jews thought were less than. And no, they are not talking about "kapos"

It really was a gay against gay persecution. Many of the men in the SA and SS were gay. The thing is they were militant gays who also suffered from all sorts of sexual perversions like pedafelia and god only knows what else. These sickos were predators.

They worshipped their masculinity and hated homosexuals who had feminine qualities.

Basically the nazis were the tough biker bar gays abusing the more feminine gays who they viewed as weak and disgraceful. It was nothing more than a group of some real sick in the head people who grabbed power due to a bad economy and the dumb public enabled the whole mess.

It seems to me that someone is being very "defensive" in a quite negative way.

I think I hit a nerve by stating a truth that you don't want to look at.

The irony is that a lot of high level Nazis were closet homosexuals, though closet is a relative term. Herman Goring, who can best be described as having been really fat, used to host private dinners for young Luftwaffe pilots. He would then get them drunk before changing into a very tight robin hood outfit, before trying to seduce a few of the young men.

Because he was such a high ranking member of the German government, Hitler refused to believe the reports, and no serious investigations were ever made.

Even then that would be ONE Nazi.

They killed of other high ranking Nazis, Rohm.

True. I hadn't read some of the other comments. My intention was not to excuse the Germans, or blame the gays, but to show hypocrisy. It's rather like a certain former prophet whose name rhymes with Spencer W. Kimball, who we all think might have been a closeted gay.

I respect gays, I don't respect hypocrites. The tragedy of homosexual persecution is that a lot of the worse transgressors were themselves gays who were trying to hide their identity. Their homosexuality did not make them monsters, but living in a world that forced them to deny who they were, and to go to extremes in order to hide it did.

Gays are like any other group. They have heroes and villains aplenty within their ranks.

But most are simply good simple people, who are only guilty of just wanting someone to love.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2012 05:22PM by forbiddencokedrinker.

Gays are not like Nazis, neo-nazis, Aryan Nation, the KKK, etc., etc..

Gays are not like the Nazis the persecuted them.

Your use of the Middle of the road logical fallacy is INSULTING.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2012 05:29PM by MJ.

I am not attacking your beliefs. I am referring to gays as being a group of human beings, not as a political group. I thought I made that clear with my line about them mostly just being people wanting to find someone to love.

By group I meant like blacks, whites, hispanics, men, women, gay, straight, not GLAAD compared to the freaking Waffen SS. I was just trying to point to a tragedy within the group, where people have turned against their own, instead of standing up for them. Again, there are heroes and villains within every group MJ, to turn your eye away from such a fact is to blind yourself to reality.

As well as every other group. Everyone is like Nazis.

Seems pretty well researched. Summary of homosexuality in the nazi party at
http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id12.html

http://wthrockmorton.com/2009/06/04/kevin-abrams-the-other-side-of-the-pink-swastika/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pink_Swastika

Did you even research the book before you posted?

The book is anti-gay propaganda.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2012 06:49PM by MJ.

Some further reading has shown me that the authors have built some of their cases on wrongheaded innuendo. Still, the subject seems to be more complex than the black-and-white/evil-good simplifications represented by the popular media.

The issue is not as gray as you think.

It deals with this topic. Excellent film.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bent_(film)

I did not know that. :(



I'm queeer, which is a dirty word on this board. :( But it is part of what makes me me.

I know society hasn't come as far as it should, but there is some progress being made.

I wish my bil was alive to see the changes. I think he would be amazed. He was so persecuted right up to the minute he died. After reading his journals, I don't think he had a moments peace about who and what he was. Maybe if he had lived longer he would have had the chance to be in a better place emotionally.

The one good thing is he wasn't ever a Mormon, and didn't have to try and wade through all that garbage too.

My husband (his brother) was a recommend carrying mormon for 20 years. He never had any temple work done for his brother. He couldn't bring himself to do it. He felt like it would have been the ultimate insult.