I was listening to a Sam Harris speech about death. His hypothesis is that religion, at its core, is about the fear of death. He said, for example, that the whole battle over evolution isn't actually about where humans came from, but about where we're going to end up.

So, I wondered how this applied to our conflicts with TBMs. Do all the arguments against Mormonism, from the first vision and polygamy to the BoA and DNA, boil down to, "If the church isn't true, then what happens to me when I die?"

Is there something to be gained by doing an end-around on all the classic arguments and discussing death instead? Mental health professionals know that most of the stuff patients talk about isn't the real heart of the situation, so they're always trying to guide patients through all the irrelevant crap and down to the core. Maybe we should try to do the same.

How many times have you heard that the church answers life's three greatest questions, where did I come from?, why am I here? and where am I going?

This is the plot of the missionary film, "Man's Search for Happiness." It is the subject for more conference talks than you can shake a stick at.

Unfortunately, the linchpin of LDS doctrine concerning the premortal life is the Book of Abraham, which is pretty obviously mumbo-jumbo.

Why are we here? Well, now that we have evolved to the state that people like Harris can tell us about morals without invoking a book of holy scripture, that's pretty much taken care of.

That leaves "Where am I going after I die?" as the final question.

To my mind (just my opinion), science is erasing all of the gaps that god used to exist in. (See "God of the gaps" arguments.) The only one left is what happens after we die. You can argue that science has explained that, also, but the idea that our soul lives on after the body dies is so ingrained in human thought that it will persist for a long time.

I pretty much agree with Harris on this. Ironically, it is religion that claims to have the "answer" to where we go, but they use "guilt" and "fear" to enforce their version of that answer. So, if religion hadn't given us this "judgement" answer, then there wouldn't be as much fear about death.

It depends on the person, though. Some people stick with Mormonism because of fear of death, for some it's fear of losing family or social ostracism. Some people just like having their lives planned out for them - it feels safe. Some people are afraid of making their own decisions and taking responsibility for them. For some people, it's the only thing they know, and they can't imagine life any other way.

True, so maybe the thing is to dig down and find out the TBM's core reason and work on that rather than hitting them with everything.

was really sold on the idea of eternal family since my brother died as a child. A grieving parent will grab on to any hope of having their child again. TSCC paints a beautiful picture for someone in this situation.

He has built so much of his life around being with his son who died as a little boy. I'll let him have that even though I think it's false.

It makes sense.
the doctrines are based on the eternal aspects, which coincide with the death fear thing.

I never had much fear of death, maybe that's why that part of it didn't take hold for me.

I had a fear of disobedience.
they combine the 2 elements of fear of death/celestial afterlife doctrine with fear of disobedience... disfellowship, excommunication, lack of eternal glory and lack of being with family in the afterlife etc.

very tricky mind programming brainwashing techniques by combining the 2!

For everyone, believer and non-believer alike, the 800lb gorilla always in the room is death. It constantly lurks in the thoughts and colors every action and no matter what steps we might take to forget about it, bingo, there it is again. I think we have been given the knowledge of our bodily death both as a lesson and a warning. Unlike animals, who don't worry about dying, we humans are cut from an eternal cloth.

Well then, slap me on the ass and call me an animal because I don't have death as a constant companion. I lost any fear of death when I lost my belief in, and fear of God.

anon7 Wrote:
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> Unlike
> animals, who don't worry about dying...

So that's why prey never try to avoid predators?

;^)

C'mon, Mutt, you know that all animals are hard-wired to attempt to stay alive. My point is that only humans contemplate their own deaths. If man is devolved from nature and without a Creator, then that would appear to be that nature equiping us with what would be a waste of mental energy. However, if God put that knowledge in man because man does live on after death, then the reason, at least to me, makes sense.

WTF? You just used a lot of words that mean absolutely nothing.

anon7 Wrote:
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> My point is
> that only humans contemplate their own deaths.

You don't know that. In fact, behavior has been observed to suggest maybe some animals do contemplate death. For example, elephant herds will gather around the bones of a former herd member, feeling the bones with their trunks, swaying. Of course, we don't KNOW what the elephants are thinking, but what they're doing isn't too different from the human cultures that go to the cemetery each year to clean the bones of their ancestors.

I actually agree that everything in religion and religious fervor comes back to a fear of death. It is shocking how powerful that fear is, and how it can be used to even make people kill themselves for their God, because it is the only way they can assure themselves they will not have "a scary death."

Fear of death is not going to go away, but neither is the mountains of evidence that stands against Creationism and conventional religion. I predict that in the next few decades that we will see the rise of a brand new set of religions ones that makes promised of an afterlife that are not built on questionable doctrine. These new churches will contain a lot of the same problems as the old ones, but overall they might actually be a lot more tolerable once they break from their cult stage.

I believe at one time, Mormonism offered such an alternative to folks back in the day, when many parts of conventional Christianity had already been discredited, but before new knowledge had a chance to discredit Joe Smith's new set of myths.

Fear of death was major influence on my decision to convert, but even more the what is the point of life. I had struggled for so long with the idea that life was hard and painful and if it had no point it should just end. But the end was so final and there were some things worth living for.

Like Jaredsotherbrother once I gave up on the hope that there was a reason or there was something after life I don't so much have the fear or anxiety. Just wish I could have figured that out without conducting the moron experiment!

He's a neuroscientist and not a psychologist, and I think the psychologists like Jonathan Haidt for example are on a hotter trail to what's really going on.

Religion chose me, I didn't choose it, and it kept me trapped in the Matrix so to speak, until I finally puzzled it out. It didn't really have too much to do with musings about death. There's lots of people that don't think much about it in my experience. They also don't think about it for a variety of reasons. Some people are not very introspective. It can be as simple as that.

It is of no value to fear death.
All that it does is steal time from you enjoyment of life

Hmmmmmm. I've known several little old ladies with no fear of death whatsoever. In fact they feared being forced to continuing suffering much more than they feared dying. It made it much easier for their families. It was a matter of waiting for the clock to run out rather than fighting for every drug or treatment to extend life one more day. Needless to say they were faithful Christians and believed they would close their eyes here and open them at Jesus'feet. Whether this is true or not is irrelevant in this case. It brought the ladies peace in their last days.

If I remember the movie correctly, in Ricky Gervais' movie "The Invention of Lying" the who lying about god starts with a woman who's mother is dying and Ricky is trying to comfort her.

I think that's a visceral example of how the fear of dying inspires religion. If you haven't seen that movie, stop what you are doing and go watch it. :)

at Stanford graduation ceremony:


... When I was 17, I read a quote that went something like: "If you live each day as if it was your last, someday you'll most certainly be right." It made an impression on me, and since then, for the past 33 years, I have looked in the mirror every morning and asked myself: "If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?" And whenever the answer has been "No" for too many days in a row, I know I need to change something.

Remembering that I'll be dead soon is the most important tool I've ever encountered to help me make the big choices in life. Because almost everything — all external expectations, all pride, all fear of embarrassment or failure - these things just fall away in the face of death, leaving only what is truly important. Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose. You are already naked. There is no reason not to follow your heart.

About a year ago I was diagnosed with cancer. I had a scan at 7:30 in the morning, and it clearly showed a tumor on my pancreas. I didn't even know what a pancreas was. The doctors told me this was almost certainly a type of cancer that is incurable, and that I should expect to live no longer than three to six months. My doctor advised me to go home and get my affairs in order, which is doctor's code for prepare to die. It means to try to tell your kids everything you thought you'd have the next 10 years to tell them in just a few months. It means to make sure everything is buttoned up so that it will be as easy as possible for your family. It means to say your goodbyes.

I lived with that diagnosis all day. Later that evening I had a biopsy, where they stuck an endoscope down my throat, through my stomach and into my intestines, put a needle into my pancreas and got a few cells from the tumor. I was sedated, but my wife, who was there, told me that when they viewed the cells under a microscope the doctors started crying because it turned out to be a very rare form of pancreatic cancer that is curable with surgery. I had the surgery and I'm fine now.

This was the closest I've been to facing death, and I hope it's the closest I get for a few more decades. Having lived through it, I can now say this to you with a bit more certainty than when death was a useful but purely intellectual concept:

No one wants to die. Even people who want to go to heaven don't want to die to get there. And yet death is the destination we all share. No one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be, because Death is very likely the single best invention of Life. It is Life's change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new. Right now the new is you, but someday not too long from now, you will gradually become the old and be cleared away. Sorry to be so dramatic, but it is quite true.

Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma — which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of others' opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.

sillymoe, thank you for sharing that story; I'm glad you're doing well.

I think you're so right about death as the "cleaner", sweeping away the old to make room for the new. But for much of our lives we are caught in the middle between the old and new. I actually grieved when the last World War I veteran died; the first time I went to a Veteran's Day parade there were several, all riding in cars. Now there are none. I also mourned the last survivor of the "Titanic", and last December I watched the Pearl Harbor ceremony knowing that in twenty years the people who lived it will be gone. This loss is, to me, almost unbearable.

I believe another purpose religion serves is to help us deal with the bad things which happen in every life. Why did XX die so young? We don't know, but God has his reason. Why did a tornado destroy that home? Same answer. For me the answer doesn't work; young people die because they get a disease science can't sure, and weather patterns determine which house gets blown away. But everyone can't do that; many people need to know why. Believing in God gives them a "why".

SOOOO glad you've recovered. I have a 53-year-old cousin with liver cancer and I fear we'll loose her. Why, I want to scream. She's a good woman, she has two children and two grandchildren and they just bought their dream house--why did this happen? It's so easy, but so unsatisfactory, to say God knows best.

Most ancient religions didn't offer much in the way of an afterlife and this includes OT Judaism.If there was one, it was more like hell than heaven. Therefore, I think Harris's belief is flawed. However, an afterlife is an appealing idea today.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2012 12:20AM by bona dea.

Sam Harris's speech is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITTxTCz4Ums

He points out that if we're annihilated at death, that would turn life into "an emergency." I thoroughly agree.

To cut to the chase, philosophically, it's simply not possible for us to know whether or not we survive death. It can be argued both ways, quite persuasively. The persuasiveness of any argument will come down not to rational argumentation, but emotional appeals that play into one's own psychic propensities, whether tending toward annihilation or survival. That is, all arguments in favor of survival or annihilation are, ultimately, ad hominem arguments. It is simply NOT POSSIBLE to know! No amount of derision, threats, and coercion in public discourse can change that.

Moreover, what people fear isn't being dead--whether that means survival or annihilation. What they fear is the PROCESS OF DYING, which is--as far as I can discern--PAINFUL, FRIGHTENING BEYOND IMAGINATION, LONELY, UNPREDICTABLE, and VIOLENT, REPLETE WITH CONVULSIVE SUFFERING and UTTER INESCAPABILITY, not to mention ULTIMATE LOSS (unless we survive)!

Do YOU want to die at 45--if you're younger than 45? NO, you do NOT!

Why not?

You're *wired* to not want to die. Not at 45. Not at 95. Never. Not ever.

To suggest otherwise means that you're **LYING.**

Certainly, it's true that some rare few individuals have such miserable lives that they claim to want to die. Some even attempt, or commit, suicide. However, what they really want is an end to suffering, and NOT annihilation.

Of *course* people are terrified of dying. Look up "terror management theory."

One thing that provides me with some minor comfort is to know that no matter what, not only will I die one day--hopefully VASTLY far in the distant future--but YOU will die, TOO. Yes, YOU. And it could be tonight, or tomorrow morning.

If you're not scared, you should be. And if you live long enough, rest assured that you'll be shaking in your boots when you finally realize that there's no escape, and that I was right. The dying process isn't pleasant. It isn't fun.

Think carefully about how to live a meaningful life, because life doesn't repeat itself. You'll never exist again as you do now.

Be good. Do good. Suck the juice out of life, and leave death with nothing but a burned-out castle.

Steve

There's a big difference between not fearing death and welcoming death.

Actually I don't care about dying.losing a loved one is why people fear death. I don't want to die because I don't want my loved ones to experience the pain of losing me.

and I still appreciate the point of view:

Death in the Open

Lewis Thomas, New England Journal of Medicine
Jan 11, 1973

Everything in the world dies, but we only know about it as a kind of abstraction. If you stand in a meadow, at the edge of a hillside, and look around carefully, almost everything you can catch sight of is in the process of dying, and most things will be dead long before you are. If it were not for the constant renewal and replacement going on before your eyes, the whole place would turn to stone and sand under your feet.

There are some creatures that do not seem to die at all; they simply vanish totally into their own progeny. Single cells do this. The cell becomes two, then four, and so on, and after a while the last trace is gone. It cannot be seen as death; barring mutation, the descendants are simply the first cell, living all over again. The cycles of the slime mold have episodes that seem as conclusive as death, but the withered slug, with its stalk and fruiting body, is plainly the transient tissue of a developing organism; the free-swimming amoebocytes use this mode collectively in order to produce more of themselves.

There are said to be a billion billion insects on the earth at any moment, most of them with very short life expectancies by our standards. Someone has estimated that there are 25 million assorted insects hanging in the air over every temperate square mile, in a column extending upward for thousands of feet, drifting through the layers of atmosphere like plankton. They are dying steadily, some by being eaten, some just dropping in their tracks, tons of them around the earth, disintegrating as they die, invisibly.

Who ever sees dead birds, in anything like the huge numbers stipulated by the certainty of the death of all birds? A dead bird is an incongruity, more startling than an unexpected live bird, sure evidence to the human mind that something has gone wrong. Birds do their dying off somewhere, behind things, under things, never on the wing.

Animals seem to have an instinct for performing death alone, hidden. Even the largest, most conspicuous ones find ways to conceal themselves in time. If an elephant missteps and dies in an open place, the herd will not leave him there; the others will pick him up and carry the body from place to place, finally putting it down in some inexplicably suitable location. When elephants encounter the skeleton of an elephant in the open, they methodically take up each of the bones and distribute them, in a ponderous ceremony, over neighboring acres.

It is a natural marvel. All of the life on earth dies, all of the time, in the same volume as the new life that dazzles us each morning, each spring. All we see of this is the odd stump, the fly struggling on the porch floor of the summer house in October, the fragment on the highway. I have lived all my life with an embarrassment of squirrels in my backyard, they are all over the place, all year long, and I have never seen, anywhere, a dead squirrel.

I suppose that is just as well. If the earth were otherwise, and all the dying were done in the open, with the dead there to be looked at, we would never have it out of our minds. We can forget about it much of the time, or think of it as an accident to be avoided, somehow. But it does make the process of dying seem more exceptional than it really is, and harder to engage in at the times when we must ourselves engage.

In our way, we conform as best we can to the rest of nature. The obituary pages tell us of the news that we are dying away, while birth announcements in finer print, off at the side of the page, inform us of our replacements, but we get no grasp from this of the enormity of the scale. There are 4 billion of us on the earth, and all 4 billion must be dead, on a schedule, within this lifetime. The vast mortality, involving something over 50 million each year, takes place in relative secrecy. We can only really know of the deaths in our households, among our friends. These, detached in our minds from all the rest, we take to be unnatural events, anomalies, outrages. We speak of our own dead in low voices; struck down, we say, as though visible death can occur only for cause, by disease or violence, avoidably. We send off for flowers, grieve, make ceremonies, scatter bones, unaware of the rest of the 4 billion on the same schedule. All of that immense mass of flesh and bone and consciousness will disappear by absorption into the earth, without recognition by the transient survivors.

Less than half a century from now, our replacements will have more than doubled in numbers. It is hard to see how we can continue to keep the secret, with such multitudes doing the dying. We will have to give up the notion that death is a catastrophe, or detestable, or avoidable, or even strange. We will need to learn more about the cycling of life in the rest of the system, and about our connection in the process. Everything that comes alive seems to be in trade for everything that dies, cell for cell. There might be some comfort in the recognition of synchrony, in the information that we all go down together, in the best of company.