I'm definitely no fan of Brigham Young, but had Joseph Smith not been killed I imagine the church would not have lasted much longer. He was losing control. Brigham Young had the iron fist of a dictator and was able to keep the con afloat.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2012 05:16PM by menomore.

Let me consult my ouija board and get back to ya

JS had a much broader and grander theological outlook.

BY had organizational skills that JS never dreamed of.

They, like all men and women, had good traits and bad.

Remember, JS had scouts looking for a new location in Utah, Texas, Mexico, California and Minnesota at the time of his death. The church never lasted more than 8 years in one place.

JS was a dreamer, BY was a doer.

IMO the theological genius of mormonism was from Spalding and Rigdon, which I am persuaded were the authors of the bulk of the LDS "scriptures".

Joseph Smith was largely a front man, with no particular genius I think other than that he was an audacious career liar.

Brigham Young, on the other hand, was a natural leader who had to actively manage the succession crisis, and used many shrewd means to control the church that I don't think Smith could have gotten away with.
Many observers have said, and I agree, that the best luck for the church was that Smith was murdered. I don't think that the church could have survived much more of him had he lived. He was making one mistake after another and the truth was catching up to him. It's just a shame that his rival mobsters got to him first, because he very likely would have discredited himself with whatever decisions he might have made in subsequent years. I think Smith was incompetent.

Yeah that was kind of what I was alluding too. Joseph Smith dying made the church last until modern times. Brigham Young was bad man in many ways, but he was a much better leader.

Joseph Smith because he stand up for peoples rigths

The reason the church couldn't stay in one place was because JS managed to annoy people to the point of revolt. Having to move around, constantly, would have ended the church. So, in that respect, I guess it would have been better to have JS in charge longer...

mcarp Wrote:
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> JS had a much broader and grander theological
> outlook.

I can't agree with you mcarp. JS was an egomaniac, a con artist, a sexual predator, and he invented an unworkable mess of a religion. I think you give him too much credit.

In a cult, the guy at the top knows it is a fraud. In a religion that guy is dead.

Joking aside, we don't know if BY would be able to do what he did without JS doing what we did.

Yeah there needed to be a Joseph Smith in order for there to be a Brigham Young.

Brigham Young's legacy is far greater in terms of what he accomplished in real world terms. Joseph Smith did start a religion and got others to follow it. Brigham Young however led a large group of people into the unknown, colonized a large portion of the west, led over his colony as a theocratic dictator. He also had very few of the problems as far as leadership goes compared to Smith. He was more respected or maybe I should say more feared than JS ever was.

Joseph was great at self-promotion. Brigham was better at self-enrichment.

I agree that the church was unraveling when Joseph was killed, though he had somehow managed to move on each time the church was on the verge of collapse in Kirtland and Missouri.

Brigham used the church as his personal bank account, and his estate owed the church some $1.5 million at his death.

here is a quote from John Hyde's book "Mormonism" 1857 "Brigham Young is superior to Smith in everthing that constitutes a great leader. Smith was not a man of genius; his forte was tact. He only embraced opportunities that presented themselves.He used circumstances but did not create them." " Smith had boisterous impetousity,but no foresight." [link by rfm poster twinker]

Choosing between Tweedledee and Tweedledum.....tough choice...depends on what type of psychopathic-control freak- megalomaniac-horn-dog floats yer boat I guess....

I'd rather be wife #154 to Joseph, so I guess it would be Joseph. This is based solely on me being a single female and what I would rather turn over and see.

Joseph Smith appears to have had great charismatic skills. He made-up a lot of doctrine as he went along much like a master story teller. He was a creative opportunist. Even if he had lived, somebody like B.Y. would have been needed to keep it going. I think J.S. would have called on his G.A.'s more and more to run things but Mormonism would only have survived with him alive if he could accept their input and let go of being the supreme leader. I doubt he would have done that.

Brigham Young had great organizational and better fear inducing skills. Once J.S. died he was able to take complete control much like a dictator does when a beloved and ineffectual monarch dies or is deposed. However, there still were a lot of members who left.

Joseph Smith and Brigham Young both had huge egos which gave them great self-confidence. Religious people trained by the New Testament accept that they should be humble and teachable. So, being led by an extremely self-confident leader makes them easily led. Then move them to desolate new surroundings with no good options, they also become dependent on strong leadership. Once they are there for a few generations they are comfortable with their new life and will be uncomfortable with anything new and different. Voila! A newer, stronger church. Even with Brigham Young I think the church would have struggled if they had stayed in Illinois.

Rigdon was responsible for the BoM and everything else. JS was a puppet and an intellectual midget.

He served a purpose, while he lasted. In the year before JS was killed in a gunfight, he had begun to go way off the ranch. He was, clearly, becoming a liability.

JS was sitting up in the top floor of the Carthage Jail, waiting to be rescued by the Nauvoo Legion. Which, inconveniently, didn't show up. Then he started shooting at people and they started to shoot back. He was worth more as a dead martyr than he was as a live prophet. And the royalty in Nauvoo made sure that was what he became...

Most cults based on charismatic leaders, die with their leaders. Most cults don't have a BY. BY saved the church by dragging it out to the middle of the great basin and isolating them from any other influence. With no neighbors to fight, BY could rule undisturbed by reality. BY ran the church like a business. He, also, ran a brothel on the side for himself and his friends.

I mean, if you think about it, SLC before the railroad came through, must have been a pretty bizarre place. Where a psychotic ruled almost absolutely, defied all legitimate authority and murdered people at his leisure. Compared to BY, JS was almost sane. At least, he didn't murder people en masse. On the other hand, JS had himself crowned king.

How this BS survived, thrived and spread beyond the people in UT has always marveled me. How people will, willingly, give over their freedom ('agency') to a series of megalomaniacs has always beyond me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2013 11:41PM by John_Lyle.

Smith, man. He is wayyyyhayhayhay more famous.

The combination of JS's martyrdom and By's organizational skills, plus the persecution the members were facing (the majority of them not knowing the underlying reasons, no doubt!), combined to create a culture that preserved Mormonism far beyond it's shelf date had JS lived.

If this particular mix of circumstances had not happened, it would no doubt have suffered the fate of other utopian and religious communities during the same approximate timeline (give or take 50 years).

Had JS and lived, the charges he was facing as far as criminal vandalism, financial mismanagement and the animosity from surrounding communities regarding the polygamy, polyandry & pedophilia (regardless of what he called it). Let's just say his "inability to keep it in his pants-ive-ness," very well could have resulted in criminal charges sticking against many of the early "priesthood," authorities. This would have affected the progression of the church.

Not to mention JS's charisma would have eventually failed the leadership test. The reason TSCC flourished has a lot to do with his "martyrdom." It made it possible for members (and others) to forget the problems and concentrate on the "tragedy" of someone dying for his beliefs. BY was smart enough to read the tea leaves, foster the feelings of group persecution and get the followers out of there before they wised up.

Tough choice.....like deciding if your gonna eat a turd or a fresh cow pie....

Ron Burr

You're funny Brigham Smith.

How about both of them dropping over from dysentery or Syphilis.
That would have left JS sons in charge. They most likely would have stayed put and not contaminated the entire west side of the country.

That would have spared me from Mormonism. Too bad Briggy showed up to take over all the wives, money, and power. He had to kill a lot of people to do it, but he did. He adored JS who made his life of wealth, women and power a possibility.

As empire builder BY was more successful, but his doctrinal opinions are disavowed by his successors.

Joseph created scriptures that dozens of Latter-Day offshoots still follow as authoritative.

Joseph Smith University just doesn't have a ring to it.

Glad he was killed so I could take over...

I've seen a pattern with business leaders.

You have entrepreneurs. These are the guys/gals with the guts to try something new. They are the dreamers with big ideas. They go up to bat with the intent to hit the ball out of the park every time.

Then you have the manager. These are the people who carefully handle the details. They are pragmatic.

For a business to be successful it has to first start with an entrepreneur and then transition to a manager. The entrepreneur is needed to get thing rolling, but then he never has the discipline to keep the details working - he is too busy dreaming of the next big thing.

The manager would never take the risk or be creative enough to get things started. But once there is a start he has the discipline to get the ducks in a row and to be efficient. He keeps the details together to grow the business.

Joseph was the entrepreneur - Brigham was the manager. Joseph would have eventually run the company into the ground. Brigham spring-boarded off Joseph and managed the company to make it really grow and stabilize.

Joseph was a horrid manager - those types of things went south - think Zion's Camp, Law of Consecration, etc. Likewise Brigham was a horrid entrepreneur - think Adam/God theory.