There's a lot of silly details to this story that I don't feel like itemizing much, so I'll try to be concise but still include relevant data. Suffice it to say I'm very much hurting right now. Lost, duped, disillusioned...all those adjectives used by others when describing the loss of Mo'ism.

Ok. My departure from Mormonism was not nearly as terrible as some accounts I read here for the following reasons:

1) I was young when I left, and left with my wife (we're 30 now)

2) I relocated to a new area thus had no existing connections to Mo's who would harrass me

3) The vast majority of harrassment I received was from my parents, whose sanity and judgment I'd already written off years before.

4) I found the church so sterile and irrelevant that I didn't feel like I was losing anything; it had become quite unimportant to me.

I almost felt like there was something wrong with me for not experiencing the trauma others do when leaving the cult. But in the past few months I've experienced it big time.

It all started on my mission when I befriended one particular recent convert, I'll call him Chad. He was the only one on my mission I felt connected to or similar to in any authentic way. We spent considerable time going on splits, bashing with other religiophiles, sharing meals or just hanging out on PDays. I found him extremely unique and interesting.

Fast forward to back home in Utah, just living my life as a young RM, finding a woman to spend my life with, as well as slowly drifting from the "Kingdom of God." My wife slowly drifted out along with me. We had our first kid a little earlier than we'd planned (use more than just birth control pills, kids), and it was a shocker. I had been enjoying my life, friends, even if in Utah.

Anyway, DW was already involved in her career and was proficient and specialized. She was offered employment in a city a mere 175 miles from my mission and my friend Chad (who I had kept contact with and even visited). The fact that this friend was close to our new nonZion city was a considerable motivation to move (although I would have anyway; it just made it nice that I would have a friend somewhat close). The fact that I could leave theocratic Utah made it even better.

So we relocated and went on with life. Resigned, no harrassment from the church, we had our second kid, I stayed at home and a few times a year travelled the 175 miles to see my good friend "Chad," although I discovered he too had ditched the cult. Even better! We both retained our interest in religious philosophies and could now even have a few drinks, etc, *etc.*

However we are both on the introverted side (him painfully, me moderately), and I wanted to form more of a "crew." He did know a few people, but mostly we would go see his friend, who I'll just call "Dark Heart." Oddly, Chad would seem agitated being there and always wanted to leave ASAP. I did not know why, for Dark Heart seemed very amiable and even a brilliant conversationalist with whom I felt I had much in common. At the time I just assumed that due to our limited time Chad wanted to resume our philosophizing, reading or art-viewing without the extroverted presence of Dark Heart.

So this went on for about 5 years. I'd go travel there to see my friends, and was meeting new people all the time. Fairly early I noticed that I didn't feel connected to Dark Heart. I was friends with Chad and others, but I was only becoming friends with Dark Heart, always becoming, never arriving. He didn't ever seem "present." He was always subtly oriented to something else, never the thing at hand. Although we'd spent time together, went to parties together it seemed the more I knew him the less I knew him. He would also spontaneously snap at people for very minor slights, and then return to normal civil interaction. I chalked it up to a quirk, but by then I was rationalizing his behavior. He was very good at articulating why certain little things bothered him so enormously, but the amount of hostility that was created by those acts was absolutely baffling.

I noticed smaller things first, like having drinks in a bar and running out without paying. That was so foreign and immature to me. Or there would be big outdoor concert festivals, and he would help people sneak in without paying. I like to have a devil-may-care good time, but my sense of humanist morals was always intact and even improved due to these activities.

In addition to his questionable conscience, his positive traits seemed borrowed or mimicked. He seemed to know the right thing to say, but it tended to have the feeling of a t-shirt slogan. There eventually came a point where I wondered what exactly he was, what he believed and felt, and if you'll excuse the crude colloquialism, whether he had a soul.

After spending time with just Chad, I felt so uplifted and fresh and just high on life. He often attributed our high feelings to the fact that he intentionally avoided interacting with Dark Heart since he knew him all to well. He would really only volunteer to see him in order to procure certain "provisions" (I hope I'm being fairly obvious by now).

But I didn't want Dark Heart to feel used, so I would often excuse myself from Chad's company to spend time with Dark Heart. It wasn't just pity, he has a lot to offer and can certainly provide a good time provided you can abide his random but well articulated anger and CONSTANT criticizing of other people behind their backs. This is how his grandiosity manifested: if he couldn't demonstrate that he was awesome, he just devalued and belittled everyone he could, like a Gulliver complex. Everyone he knew was just such an idiot to him and he had no problem telling me what a great person I am and in the next breath violently yell at me for not knowing where the volume button was on his stereo.

This stuff was getting worse as he got older, too. I came to realize it was not some kind of phase or quirk but a fundamental part of who he is. I identified his actions as those of a Narcissist but continued rationalizing them plus I really, really cared about him and his weird anger and bouts of vague sadness concerned me and I wanted to "help" if I could. I could also tell that I was valuable to Dark Heart in this way: normally people would stop by to see him, pick up some provisions, and get the he!! out. But when I was there, people would stay, hang out, chat a while. I knew that he hated when they would leave so quickly and liked that they stayed when I was there.

This seemed good; I like people, people like me, and I felt like I was helping Dark Heart feel better. And then the next day of my weekend or whatever I would spend time with Chad which would recharge my spirits so to speak, even when I didn't know they needed recharging. It was obvious that I was a different person when I was around Dark Heart. Not so much an undesirable person, just different. Constant egg-shell walking will do that.

This is where things stood until last fall. I would occasionally travel down there and attend parties with Dark Heart or hang at his house, and spend time with Chad and his new girlfriend separately in more subdued activities. These visits were intermittent in my life, but enormously important to me and I considered it all my social circle or tribe.

Here's how everything went to absolute ---- I was hanging out at Dark Heart's as usual and he was agitated as usual. But this time I well understood his anger. He'd loaned somebody $1000 to give a party and that person refused to pay him back, and even mocked him in front of a bunch of people such as giving him a pat on the back as payment. This was also typical for Dark Heart to be exploited by people because they did not respect him or like him.

Although quieter than usual, Dark Heart was making understandably hateful comments about this person and how Dark Heart wanted to "go Dexter on his a" (referring to the tv show about the professional killer). I felt bad for him, tried to console him, while the usual party people stopped by for chatting etc. It had gotten late in the night and some unfamiliar people stopped by. I was cordial and friendly to them but they were mostly talking quietly with Dark Heart over a computer. I noticed one of them was in possession of a narrow heavy club, like a police baton or nightstick. I just thought it was a novelty but after they'd left Dark Heart glibly informed me that the person who owed him money was about to get his legs broken and his car stolen.

Obviously my "help" through the years had no impact on his sense of morality. I felt like such a MORON for giving so much support to this vicious jerk. He was actually capable of violence. Not just verbal abuse, but real actual physical violence! (not to downplay the horrors of emotional abuse). I was shocked by this capability, and out-of-my-mind nonplussed as to why he would gladly tell me this. Did he really think I would be okay with that? What did it say about me that I was one of his inner circle cronies that would justify it? Ugh it still makes me sick to my stomach.

I came back home in a state of shock. I was on the phone with Chad trying to make sense of this person he'd known since high school but to my chagrin Chad was sticking up for him and diverting matters to ME! This is extra fun: you know what my sins were? Sleeping in till one in my own hotel two years ago and eating a bit sloppy at the mall due to sleep deprivation during the weekend in question. That's it. I pressed for more grievances I'd committed, but that was it. He had just started school again so he was waxing moral about table manners? I don't know but it really hurt. Moreover, anything I said to Chad would invariably be passed on to Dark Heart, so I had to clam up. Everyone else I'd met knew Dark Heart first, needed Dark Heart's services, and I didn't feel comfortable "rocking the boat" with them.

So now it's been since thanksgiving since I've talked to any of the nice people I've met down there. It took Dark Heart a month or so to realize I wasn't talking to him and he started cranking up his original charms, but mostly he was enlisting Chad to call me after I'd ignored Dark Heart's calls and texts and facebooks. I also ignored Chad's calls because he was simply calling me after I failed to answer Dark heart's calls. by then I fully knew what I was dealing with: a full blown personality disorder (most likely NPD or Borderline PD comorbid with Antisocial PD but idk) and that the strategies were extremely similar to Mormonism's. After I'd read more about the pathology I discovered that as a child of Narcissism, I was naturally drawn to Narcissists as an adult. There is a subconscious drive to find the key to their soul and thus find the key to my Narcissist parents souls and finally receive validation from them that they never even were capable of giving. That particular fact helps me not feel like such an idiot.

As powerless and sad as I've felt for losing these connections, I have had a tentative plan in mind: cut off contact for at least six months so that Dark Heart realizes he can't use Chad to get me to change my position. I want Chad out of that dynamic first and foremost. Once I stop receiving "love bombs" from Dark Heart using Chad as proxy I will contact Chad to see if he wants to resume our friendship. Another possibility (albeit a conceited one) is that my disengagement might actually modify Dark Heart's behavior. I know that Narcissism can't be cured, but Narcissists CAN change their behavior (Steve Jobs in his late 20's is a good example).

If I hear from enough people that Dark Heart has definitely changed, I will consider friendship with him again, but that report cannot come from Chad since Dark Heart most likely is treating him extra nice artificially and temporarily, hoping to influence my opinion once again. The problem with that scenario is no one else beside those two has contacted me at all. I've recently sent breezy hello messages on FB with no response. I'll wait a bit and actually try the phone. It's most likely that they are just very carefree people and don't know that I feel so grave, isolated and utterly repulsed by the violence. People dip in and out of that "world" all the time.

So there it is, I am very lonely and very angry and I think I can better identify with the harsher exit scenarios in Mormondumb. But my wife has been very generous and patient with me and our relationship seems a bit closer. Plus my beautiful kids notice my sadness and try to help in their own ways.

Thanks to any readers of this and please accept my condolences if you are in pain and know that I feel it too to some extent.

"but Narcissists CAN change their behavior (Steve Jobs in his late 20's is a good example)"

There's no way a Mormon is going to try LSD, the catalyst behind Jobs' behavior change.

only to return later with much more ethical practices.

Dark Heart sounds creepy. His capacity for violence should be a red Flag for you. I would break with both these guys, seems like they are dragging you down into their own nutty dramas. Be assured that you will not be able to change them into the people you wish they were. You sound (to me, at least) vulnerable and kind of lonely. Make friends with nice, normal people. They are everywhere! Leave"trouble"people alone.

Now just to deal with the fact that I'm much better at keeping friends than at making them. But I definitely am not going to expect people to change. I'm learning. I posted a while ago about a meddlesome gal in my life with PTSD who I had to kick out of my life also. But yeah the loneliness is pretty bad, especially being a SAH dad.

It sounds to me like a better plan is to write off both Chad & Dark Heart. Take that energy and put it into relationships with your wife & kids or finding new friends. Or doing service or something else constructive.

testiphony, since I have had many occasions to enjoy "provisions" I have known some dark hearts. They are best left behind if you want to live in the sunshine. Their violence and criminality will spill over into your life otherwise.

As for Chad, I've gone back and forth whether I want to make another go. But the fact that I haven't spoken to either since November is probably a good start. I honestly don't know how to be friends with Chad anymore even if I wanted.

I'm the last person to share an "adult" observation on here, but one I've learned is that when people aren't making you enjoy life--just cut them out. I used to struggle mightily with that. You always feel personal loyalties, or remember the good times... but life is so limited and not worth the time it takes to waste on people you don't enjoy being around.

There are so many kickass, fun people in this world who are always looking for one more. No need to keep yourself trapped--either by bad friends, cult churches, or toxic lovers.

It sounds like you need to search your own soul for additional reasons why you are devoting your life to something that will bring you nothing.

What you are dealing with goes way beyond mormon issues. Feeling your pain is the first step to healing your life. You're already there so take the next step to face the pain and take responsibility for your own sadness and toxic friendships. It's not your children's job to make you feel better. You need a good therapist to help you put your life back together in a healthy way. You owe it to yourself and your family.

did not state that it was my children's job to make me feel better. I was incidentally counting my blessings that I have kids who are wonderful and detect my sadness. Don't you think "taking responsibility for my own sadness" might entail appreciating how nice my kids are to me? I am profoundly devoted to my family. I think that comment was over the line but thanks for the advice.

I guess that's what happens when you are only getting a small snapshot into someone's life that you don't really know. I think sometimes when we give advice it is laden with our own difficult personal experiences. (I have a parent who always wants me to make her feel better about her life though she will never do it for herself.) It looks like the comment about your child trying to help you feel better hit a trigger button. I can see better what you meant since you explained it.

I guess I was a little taken back about all the energy you have put into these bizarre sounding friendships.

I meant no harm and I wish you well!

Dark Heart is a walking time bomb. He also knows where you live with your family and you have already witnessed what he is capable of doing.

Keep pleading excessive work/family/school demands and DROP those two.
Close your Facebook account.

Even under the best of circumstances, you are spending too much time and energy on outsiders and ruminating about them when your best should go to your wife and child.

I had nightmares the day he texted me and said he was in my town. He's never been to my house but I assume that wouldn't be difficult for him to find. My wife and I don't feel that's a realistic concern at this point but it's been discussed.

I enjoyed the well written post of yours. I have met some Dark Hearts in my life (especially to pick up provisions, so maybe those personalities are the type who deal with that type of atmosphere/environment), and from my experiences some people's personalities are poison for all around them.

And based on your post, I think you're lucky to have a family to lean on. Having no one in a situation that you are/have experienced can have adverse affects on some people. You seem like you're the good friend. I find that mental struggles decrease when we accept some people are the way they are (people usually don't change, even if they say so).

academically interesting to me, is the formation of Dark Heart's narcissistic "cult" if you will, due to the inherent power of the provisions in the atmosphere. Mormons have to use hard cult tactics and heartsell exploitation on such a sober populace, but a guy like Dark Heart hardly has to work at it at all.

There comes a time when you need to evaluate relationships and clean house.

You have seen the warning signs. Pay attention!
Don't hang in there until you wake up one day and your windshield is smashed in and your tires are flat.

IMO you are playing with fire, and endangering your family. There is NO friend that's worth that.

It's time to move on. Maybe consider some counseling. I think it would do you good to look into why you would choose the friends that you do. I think your loyalties are a bit skewed.

Now, that's exactly what I was "trying" to say.

It was my friends who were toxic, not my family, therefore the post was devoted to my friends. I also vent in my journal. If you read that without knowing me you would think I am suicidal which I am not. Did you not notice I wrote that I only visited these people intermittently? I apologize for the post length.

He said in his post that he and his wife have taken the violent nature of this man very seriously and have apparently taken those risks into consideration when deciding to terminate the friendship. I think saying his loyalties are skewed is a little unsubstantiated. I think he is frustrated because his closest friends lived 175 miles away and have now been surgically removed. He knows he needs to make new friends but doesn't know how to do that as a stay at home dad.

Narcissists rarely, if ever, change. Cut your losses and go on with your life. Chad is his enabler. I know all about control by proxy. My sister, who has big time problems with our mother, raked all over me, bigtime, when I went to her for help. Don't expect Chad to cut loose from him. There's something he needs in that relationship. Lastly, your new friends have probably already been influenced by the narcissist, through smear tactics behind your back. That happened to me with about five people. The only thing you can do is start over making new friends who are not acquainted with that group. It's hard and painful, and takes time, but is doable. I know how horrible the pain is. People who have not been the target of a narcissist have no idea the emotional devastation it causes.

Don't take what carol says lightly.
She knows all about the devastation a narcissist can bring to you. It's very easy to underestimate them. They are some of the most manipulative people you'll have the displeasure of meeting.

My sister is also a very devoted and duplicitous enabler and proxy worker. I don't tell her anything I don't expect to be broadcast at FT meeting.

Maybe I overreacted. His friends sound like people that I would want to cut ties with. I don't see any benefit.
I got the impression that DH can be a threatening person. When you have a spouse and kids those kind of people aren't the types you want in your life.

The old saying comes to mind. Don't look for trouble, because trouble will find you.

In other words, it someone is bringing trouble into your life, that's what you're going to have. Trouble.

And honestly judging by some of these reactions I think anyone remotely associated with this guy are going to have to be permanently off the table for me. I don't know how scared I should feel, I thought I already went through all my fear but you guys got me scared again :D

and you don't know what to do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2012 02:53AM by lulu.

There may be an important piece of info I omitted. Dark Heart's initial reaction was not one of violence. He tried to sue this guy for the thousand bucks first and resorted to violence only after a few months (dont know the exact time) of failure to collect. The mocking incident was a sort of a critical mass moment where he finally decided to inflict violence.

Sorry for forgetting to add that. I am so dogmatically opposed to what he did that I did not think about what a court might consider a coherent motive.

Anyway I don't know if that changes things but there are a few ins and outs that lead us to conclude we don't need to be seriously concerned about violence or vandalism toward us. It is true that one cannot underestimate N's, but we also know that N's tend to be cowardly and less disposed to violence than other disorders due to the overtness of violence.

You're a young father hanging out with a violent drug dealer and you don't know what to do?

You think in 6 months you might go back to him?

You are hanging out with a violent drug dealer and you don't know what to do?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2012 03:23AM by lulu.

""""I HAVE HAD a TENTATIVE plan in mind: cut off contact for AT LEAST six months so that Dark Heart realizes he can't use Chad to get me to change my position. I want Chad out of that dynamic first and foremost. Once I stop receiving "love bombs" from Dark Heart using Chad as proxy I will contact Chad to see if he wants to resume our friendship.""""(emphasis mine)

You understand Chad is not the violent one but the enabler I assume. Chad is the least violent person I have ever met. However through this thread it can be seen that I've been dissuaded from resuming even ties with Chad. The six months number indicates how long I consider it necessary for Dark Heart to realize I'm gone and to stop enlisting Chad to get me back.

"""If I hear from enough people that Dark Heart has definitely changed, I will CONSIDER friendship with him again, but that report cannot come from Chad since Dark Heart most likely is treating him extra nice artificially and temporarily, hoping to influence my opinion once again."""(emphasis mine)

This was mostly an idealistic afterthought than anything but If you read this in context you see that I portray this scenario as very unlikely to happen due to circumstances and loyalties. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I have not intended to carry on with Dark Heart at all since the first sign of violence. I go on to describe resigning myself to the fact that I'm bitter and lonely and that I've accepted things the way they are now (no contact) and that my relationship with my wife is stronger.

I know my post was long, but I fail to see how you interpreted my situation the way you did.

If you want to lecture me about the morality of drugs, I doubt this is the appropriate venue nor that I would be interested in your opinions on the matter.

You're a young father hanging out with a violent drug dealer and you don't know what to do?

This is not even a little bit complicated. The fact that you are going on and on about this is you trying to ignore the obvious. The real question is why are you working this hard to ignore the obvious?


the answer to that question may require professional help. It is certainly above my pay grade. Listen to yourself. And you might consider a sign on your fridge that says "Lulu's right."

Good luck.

You said it has been since November that you've had any contact with him. It also sounds like the only time you've witnessed these violet tendencies were as a result of a squabble over money. Unless you owe this man money, I don't think he will randomly show up and be dangerous at this point in time. I think as long as you leave communication severed, you don't need to feel in danger. It is only if contact is reestablished that you will introduce the danger to yourself and family. Just leave him out and there is no reason to open past fears.

Dark Heart sounds like a sociopath rather than a narcissist. The most telling thing you said about him is that his positive traits seem to be shallow, as though he's mimicking them. That sounds like classic sociopathy. And the charm -- turning in on and off to get what he wants from people.

It's good you realise he must be out of your life for good, because he's not going to change.