In writing this, I fully realize that doctrine is difficult to define. Even so, I think you'll find that my list of ten things is non-doctrinal.

1. Local units have very little control over their budgets and have minuscule funding compared to what they had in the past and compared to what the units bring in headquarters the way of tithes and offerings. In some stakes, including my own, budget allotments doled out to the wards and branches are tied to home teaching and visiting teaching methods in a twisted carrot and stick approach which ignores how members are paying for he carrot in the first place.

2. The correlation department has correlated the spirit out of existence. A one size fits all approach leaves little room for local adaptation and discourages innovation and creative thinking. While there should be a base to fall back on, everything is so tightly scripted, particularly in primary, young women, and young men. Who needs to prepare a message when everything is laid out by correlation members at the church office building? Just show up and repeat what is in the manual. Don't deviate from it one bit or ask thought provoking questions that require more than regurgitating back an answer everyone already knows.

3. The prophet and apostles hide behind public relations and won't tackle current events or controversies.

4. The church increasingly marginalizes those that leave and those who don't tow the party line. Either you are in or your out. No room for diversity of thought.

5. Sacrament meetings are boring and uninspiring. Leaders wait until the night before to assign talks. Members are allowed to cite Ezra Taft Benson and Spencer Kimball on controversial subjects, claiming that their old fashioned interpretations are still church policy. More liberal, free thinking members are not routinely invited to speak.

6. Church chapels deteriorate as members continue to clean them.

7. Members learn friendships based on church callings, home teaching, and visiting teaching. Vey little genuine friendships are developed and those who don't nurture their callings are shunned. Members walk back and forth in the hallways without saying hello to many other members.

8. Everyone is eager to leave church as soon as it ends. Gee, I wonder why?

9. Everything has to be done according to the manual. So much structure that everything feels dead and fake.

10. Members don't do missionary work because they know the church is weird and are embarrassed by it.

What non-doctrinal, non-historical issues do you see?

The majority of the members spend so much time being mormon, they forget to be christian.

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

Who knows if he actually said it or not, but I like it.

I've quoted that on FB a few times... Good quote!

"You have to be careful about quotes you see on the internet, some of them are fake, and some were not said by the supposed author of the quote." Abraham Lincoln

1. The way Mormons tend to isolate themselves from mainstream society and live very narrow lives.
2. They worry about all the wrong things like what underwear you have on and what beverage you are drinking rather than "the content of your character."
3. They think they have a corner on Jesus and The Spirit. They also think they are the only ones who will be with their loved ones in heaven and all good feelings confirm Mormons are right.
4. You don't feel better after a Mormon Sacrament meeting. There is really no emphasis on being spiritual. It's all about obeying someone else's idea of spirituality and goodness.
5. You have to go to church where you are told, when you are told and with whom you are told and give the service you are told to give.
6. There seems to be a real emphasis on appearance and setting a good example rather than actually being a good person.
7. They don't seem capable of seeing things from any point of view but their own. They really can't see why their behavior is not respected or is offensive. They think everyone else has a problem, not them.
8. If it suits them, they lie.
9. There is just way too much busy work. They make you feel important running in circles for them.
10. City Creek Mall

But I'm sure I can think of some:

The constant make work!

Endless meetings, even meetings ABOUT meetings!

Guilt. Priesthood meeting was all about guilt. "We need 4 elders to help Sister Blowitoutherass move on Thursday." crickets.

Oh! I have a good one. Their stupidassed terminology. Things such as "callings", "THE church", "served in...", "mission call", "edified", "spirit", "sacred", "holy", "gift and power of gawd", "sanctified", "worthy", "testimony" there are so many!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2012 11:06PM by Levi.

Nourishment. I hit the fan when I hear that word.

Edified is another good one.

Lovebombing. Nothing pisses me off more than knowing I'm on a list somewhere and people are faking nice to "fix" me. When I first left and people showed up to "see how I was doing," it was the first, last, and only time I contemplated premeditated assault in my life. No joke. I actually thought of hitting the dudes with a shovel.

And then I realized how sick I was--not because that would have injured two worthless wastes of DNA, but that I was responsible for countless lovebombing outreaches myself. I wasn't even being repaid in karma 5%, and yet here I was, getting all riled up on their asses.

There's my number one item. I hate the way the church makes you feel about yourself when you leave, knowing what you did in it to others. That, I still can't live down. And it's haunted me every night for years. I don't sleep that well.

and the abuse they suffered within the confines of the Mormon church-will never go away. No matter how much I make it up to them, no matter how much I apologize, I will never forgive myself for raising my children in a cult.

The fact that there are no windows to let in natural light into the Chapels.. that bugs the sh*t out of me.
Put the sheeple in a window-less room and rob their minds of
free thinking. Isolation them from the outside dark and dreary world.

Ours used to have windows, and then after a recent renovation, they disappeared. I wonder if this is deliberate?

Temples.

The amount of money spent on them and the whole secret/sacred thing. Members with a temple recommend are more "worthy" than those without. It creates two classes within the church, and you can bet people seethe when they know someone with a TR that is breaking rules. Do temples really impress non members, or just make mormons feel better about themselves?

Responsibility is never accepted by the higher ups. Example, mission presidents don't take responsibility for problems in their missions. They blame 19 & 20 year olds instead.

The way they have developed to make your family's "eternal progression" dependent upon your actions. When leaving Churchco, they make certain you know that they hold the franchise on your soul, and that you've blown your entire family's chances, not just yours.

Every one of the items on your list have been on mine too. I think most of us agree with them, especially the scripted dogmatism that gets worse every year since correlation.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2012 11:51PM by rationalguy.

"The way they have developed to make your family's "eternal progression" dependent upon your actions"

Exactly. You know how they changed the lyrics from "I Am A Bastard Of God"?

I know....I know...I shouldn't swear, but I just can't give them the respect they so desperately desire.

It used to be "teach me all that I must know"

It is now "teach me all that I must do"

It might just be a little word, but it changes everything.

As a sidebar, I hate that gd song. The tune is like fingernails on a chaulkboard. The words are moronic. I'd like to dig up the lady who wrote it and hit her over the skull with her own shin-bone (to quote a certain gentleman).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2012 12:22AM by Levi.

Not being able to 'call out' the so-called Lord's Annointed when they are deserving of criticism from wrongdoing, etc.

Looking down on members that are Democrats and not planning to vote for Mittens or not gushing over Glenn Beck.

1) Thelay clergy.
A) So much is taken from those who accept callings, especially the difficult ones. The bishops, relief society presidents, etc. often dedicate many hours to the church because they believe they have to or incur the wrath of God. These people are often "sucked dry" and they and their families suffier.

B) These lay clergy are given "godlike" power. They are to be sustained not questions. It is a temple covenant to not speak evil of the Lord's annointed, commonly understood as anyone in authority over you. Occassionally you get a real jerk in one of these positions and they basically have carte blanch to abuse whoever they want. Even if good people their naivitiy, lack of training, etc. often cause serious harm to people who give them way more creedence and authority than they deserve.

C) There is something wrong with you if you ever turn down a calling. You should never asked to be released. No matter how much you hate what you are doing you are supposed to continue until you are released. Conversely, you may be doing something you love and on a whim it ends. For example my wife & I really enjoyed doing cub scouts together, but once we were released we didn't get to do it anymore. In normal organizations you can keep volunteering and serving if you find something you love.

2) Public shaming. The whole concept of "worthiness" to be able to do things in the church is greatly problematic. Aside from being completely opposite of the whole point of Christianity is creates public shaming situations. Bishops are given way too much authority to create this shaming. Not being allowed to take the sacrament is humiliating. Not being able batpize children, attend temple weddings, etc. is horrid.

3) Entanglements with politics that they should not be involved in. The ongoing problem with sexism & discrimination against LGBTs.

4) It's all about the "Sunday School" answers. You can pretty much answer the point of every lesson/talk with. Read your scriptures, go to church, pay your tithing, magnify your calling, have FHE, home/visit teach, say your prayers, attend the temple. Being nagged to do those things pretty much sums up 90% of the LDS church going experience.

5) Focus on appearance - avoiding the appearance of evil, etc.

6) Ward members giving talks and lessons means that the majority of talks/lessons really suck. Occassionally there is a gem in there, but overall the quality of horrid.

7) Testimony meetings. Occassionally really entertaining, but generally dull. The sense of "guilt" & should. The occassional long pauses. Some bishops giving "preachamonies" to guilt trip everyone.

8) Trek

9) The poor people stuck in the nursery that hate it. All too often young mothers that have those age children at home who are already burned out. Instead of needed social interaction at church - they are stuck giving free babysitting.

10) Folding chairs.

11) Priesthood assignments. In priesthood opening exercises there are all these tons of assignments that people are supposed to volunteer for. Many of them are just busywork - like temple sealings. When there is a real need everyone is so burned out from "volunteering" for bs stuff that no one wants to do the real stuff.

12) Friends of scouting

13) Inequality of money spent on young men's programs vs. young women's in many wards.

14) Phallic steeples

15) Ward boundaries. If someone lives across the street not in your ward, you may never meet them. The ward is so all consuming there ain't much left for other stuff.

16) Sunday's are dull and boring if you follow them closely. Especially for kids. Stuff like wearing church clothes all day, no TV, no playing outside, etc.

Every Member a Janitor Wrote:

"6. Church chapels deteriorate as members continue to clean them."

My wife's uncle was a church janitor but was laid off when the cleaning program was changed. He has been able to find construction work, but often has to travel long distances, stay at the location during the week, and come home on the weekends.

The corporate nature of Churchco.

At this point, the things that drive the church like the curriculum, information management, doctrinal tone, etc. are not emanating from the GA's. It's all run by oily corporate types in the COB. They pull the wool over the old guys' eyes and run the thing the way they want to.

all of the Above.

wish but glad you've named most of mine also, Thanks

The emphasis on obedience, the anti-intellectualism, hiding history, having businessmen in charge,the one size fits all mentality, boring noisy meetings, too much meddling in politics, puritanical attitudes, too little Jesus and too much emphasis on everything else and Pharisee like behavior.

...hyper-religious, but lacking in compassion, integrity, and truthfulness. Always ready to come out with a lie. Example: Even though all the other participants vividly remember the time they and Romney we held down a shy, gay boy and Romney personally cut off his long hair, Romney says he just doesn't recall that particular incident.

Your number 1, especially #2, #3, #4, #5, #7, especially #9, and #10 are all reasons that most nonmembers that know anything about mormonism consider it to be a Cult. If forced to choose between a scientologist and a mormon, it would be a hard choice.

Every Member a Janitor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> 5. . . . . Members are allowed to cite Ezra Taft
> Benson and Spencer Kimball on controversial
> subjects, claiming that their old fashioned
> interpretations are still church policy. More
> liberal, free thinking members are not routinely
> invited to speak.

But don't you DARE quote Brigham Young on Adam-God, or Blood Atonement, etc.

1) It's all hocus-pocus

2) It controls through fear and ignorance

3) It rewards irrationality and conformity while demonizing critical thinking and individuality

4) It makes people hate themselves while simultaneously making them think they're superior to outsiders

5) It's an authoritarian institution

Lather, rinse, repeat.

they're Constantly speaking in non-specific terms; with ChurchCo leaders, mixing-confusing Facts with Opinions/Doctrine/FPRs is a High Art!

1. It robs the members of money and time, for purposes of enriching a few scummy old con men at the top. I should say *they* rob the members of money and time.

2. It isolates and deprives the members of experience, for purposes of robbing them of their money and time. It, or again I should say *they,* deliberately hold people back, preventing them from leading fulfilling lives and society from progressing. This makes me madder than anything.

3. The brainwashing makes believing members difficult to impossible to converse and interact with, causing a lot of pain for those of us who have escaped the clutches of mind-numbing stupidity.

My only issue is, it's not a "church".

It's a complex organized crime syndicate founded by a snake oil salesman that continues to manipulate and extort well-intentioned people to cough up obscene amounts of money for purposes that are clearly NOT based on Christian principles.

And you can quote me on that.

Non-doctrinal, non-historical issues?

1. Nobody ever tells a TBM and he or she is becoming too Mormon. Their only solution to any issue is more Mormonism. The root of this is doctrinal, however: when your religion is founded upon works, the only solution is always more work.

2. Mormons state their credentials in terms of Church achievement (missions, callings - their own or vicariously through their husband or sons). If you're working, then there must be evidence.

3. Mormons know little of our communities. If it doesn't happen at Church, did it even happen at all? If salvation is earned, why have other interests?

4. Dedication is measured by size of your family. All that preaching about righteous posterity must have an influence.

5. Converts are wonderful, provided they know their place. Don't take callings reserved for BiC missionaries "from before the foundation of the world." And never marry our daughters. Daughters of Zion are destined for RMs. Pioneers have great historical significance in the Church.

5a. I suppose I might interject about attraction to Sons of Adam - although I never liked any of them in that way.

6. The closer your ancestors lived to the SLC temple (or Cardston, for us Canucks), the better it will be for you in this life and the life to come. And if your lineage includes an apostle or prophet, even more so. History again.

7. The Church's position must always be defended. The bishop never meant to do that callous thing. It is all a misunderstanding. They must have said the same thing to those who lost their savings in Kirtland.

8. The more sexually repressed you are, the more righteous you must be. Even better if your suppression can be broadcast throughout the known universe (beyond Kolob?). Doctrine always sides with the most repressed person in the room.

9. The Church, the bishop, my mother-in-law, the harpies in Relief Society all have more authority in my home than me. Don't argue: it says so in the Scriptures (even if the verses aren't available yet).

10.Agency is an eternal principle. Agency implies that we should each be able to choose our religious involvement. Sadly, Mormons interpret agency to be that we can be coerced into activities. Agency is a true principle - just abused by Mormons encouraged by their religion.

So there are my 10: Take note that there are no non-doctrinal, non-historical issues.

These are all great!

Here's my list:
1. The sing-song, childish voice TBM women adopt.
2. Fake smiles.
3. Swearing euphemisms (gol darn fetchin' shazam!).
4. Categorizing everyone in the world as "member" or "non-member."
5. Taking the ENTIRE FAMILY to the grocery store.
6. Grown women who feel the need to wear a t-shirt and leggings under a sundress -- and inflict the same on their little girls.
7. Giant SUVs and minivans with the little characters on the tinted back window.
8. Lovebombing.
9. Scrapbooking.
10. Churches on every corner (in Utah Valley, anyway) -- or, as I saw last week, two of them NEXT DOOR to each other!