http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/13/equal-rights-gay-rights-and-the-mormon-church/?src=recg

Interesting piece. I was too young to know about how TSCC fought ERA...exactly like PropH8.

Personal note: I like that the NYT doesn't submit to using COJCOLDS, but rather just "the mormon church".

Neil J. Young teaches history at Princeton. He writes articles for HuffPost on modern religion and politics. It is quite possible he is or was Mormon, considering that the preponderance of his writing and teaching includes some aspect of Mormonism.

That being said, there are two extraordinary quotes from his article that reveal simple truths about Mormon leaders that can not be ignored in the context of Mormons Building Bridges:

"In excommunicating Johnson, the church had not only taken the life out of Mormons for E.R.A., but more importantly, it had strengthened its ability to command absolute obedience from its members no matter the issue, ecclesiastical or political."
(paragraph 16)

"Petitioning the church’s leadership to alter its policies or theology will not produce the desired results, and protesting the church’s actions will most likely elicit harsh rebukes or worse. History has been clear that the church does not submit to pressure from below nor does it overlook challenges to its leadership."
(paragraph 21)

For the most part, it was a well-written article, and Mr. Young had me until he backpedalled in his final paragraph with this out-of-touch bit of apologetic silliness:

"Were gay Mormons to become a sizable and visible presence in church wards across the country, perhaps the church will take notice and adjust accordingly. [...] if gay Mormons prove to be an active component of the Mormon church, then the church, much like President Obama, will likely continue to evolve its position on homosexuality."
(paragraph 22)

Dear Mr. Young: the Mormon church changed its racial policies toward Blacks solely in response to external legal and economic pressures. The Mormon church has never changed its position on the role of women their second-class status BECAUSE there is no legal OR economic OR doctrinal gain from doing so. The Mormon church will never change its position on gays and lesbians BECAUSE there is no legal OR economic OR doctrinal gain from doing so. This state may change in the future ('may,' because of course certain things are still possible according to the laws of physics), but it would require such a twisting-up of present-day doctrine that the resulting church would resemble a pretzel more than it would a church.

Furthermore, "were gay Mormons to become a sizable and visible presence in church wards across the country," and if the church ever took notice and adjusted accordingly, it would mean the church had decided to send its entire Plan of Salvation to the shredder, because there is no place in that plan for lesbians and gays in any way, shape, or form. We all know that shredding will never happen. Ergo, we all know that lesbians and gays will never be welcomed into full fellowship and franchisement in the Mormon church.

With the business men running the church today I think you are probably right. They will never change until so many people are leaving they have no choice or until the society as a whole changes it's views on gays so much that they have to change to stay mainstream. Right now they really want to fit in with conservative Christians so their anti-gay positions are great for building good will with the Evangelicals and Catholics. If we somehow got a prophet like Joseph Smith again the change would happen really fast. Joseph Smith had no problem making up stuff as he went along. He would just make up some new special roles for gays in the Plan of Salvation and would set up gay temple sealings to help them along their path. But the top leadership are just all about running a good business and never rocking the boat and they choose people just like themselves to replace the ones who die so change will be a long time coming.

What would Joseph do? Your take on that is fascinating and no doubt right. Morals aside, ole Joe did have star quality and some pizazz sorely lacking in today's prophets who are increasingly following a script so boring I don't know how even they stay awake.

Is it possible that the church could dwindle away due to lack of interest rather than lack of plausible doctrine? Sheer boredom may beat us to the punch.

LOL!

and yet the mormon church still won't budge, still does not support equal rights for women, still treats women as 3rd-class citizens.
Why the constant emphasis on gay rights when they haven't even addresses the rights of 50% of the human population?

I know, I know, I know....

That's why I liked xyz's post on why it won't come from within.

I've watched my mother and grandmother and sisters and nieces all do it. It is hard to watch, but they don't want to hear from me, no, they are all ears for that liver faced monsoon though.

Bow your heads sisters, bow your heads.

The church needs more of you 'bad girls'. And they need them now.

Interesting article.

However, I think the author has one thing wrong. I think the LDS church is PR savvy enough now to let the Mormon's love gays message to float out there.

You can see that it is carefully crafted to say we love gays but we still aren't backing off on considering them sinners and we aren't admitting that should have equal rights - in a way it's almost like saying we love our pets. Yes we love them, but that isn't the same as considering equal and equally valid humans.

Certainly some of the members of the "movement" have good intentions, but in the end this is a PR move by the LDS church and clearly within the strings and boundaries that the church is OK with.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2012 01:37PM by bc.

"Were gay Mormons to become a sizable and visible presence in church wards across the country, perhaps the church will take notice and adjust accordingly. [...] if gay Mormons prove to be an active component of the Mormon church, then the church, much like President Obama, will likely continue to evolve its position on homosexuality."

This basically says that gays have to become comfortable within TSCC then, MAYBE TSCC will change. Welcome to my lair said the spider to the fly.

in church wards across the country, yet nothing has changed for women in TSCC.

Guilty of extreme wishful thinking if the author truly expects TSCC to "evolve" its stance towards the GLBT community when it still prohibits women from the priesthood.

Yeah, I was one of those 100% of mormon women who apposed ERA that Borin Orrin was talking about. Actually, not. But I was out there combing my assigned street in North Las Vegas passing out literature as a "community" volunteer telling women why they didn't want equal rights (you know, unisex bathrooms, women in combat, a single woman having to be paid the same as a man with a family, and all that bad stuff).

Finally a woman asked me if I new what the ERA said. I did not (other than all those other bad things). She said, "No, honey, it says Equal rights under the law shall not be abridged or denied on the basis of sex. Now what is so wrong with that?" I realized nothing was wrong with that, deposited the rest of my literature in the trash and stayed in the feminist closet for a lot of years.

given that I grew up raised by a single woman in the sixties in the deep south -- and lived with the very tangible disparity between me and my friends who had fathers

that particular argument has always made me want to punch in faces.

The church is using the same model it used to make women complicit in their own subservience in an effort to do the same to those pesky gays.

My own mother prides herself on her independent thinking and fortitude when she does everything the Priesthood tells her to do. She proudly announces that it is her choice. She goes to the temple, pulls the veil over her face and bows her head and says yes.

As a child I watched her sob because she wanted a career so badly. She wanted so much more. But in the end she never had one--her choice so she says.

The gay kids remaining in the church, celibate, proclaiming that it is god's plan, a test, for them to deny their very essence is the same. They may not have the veil over the face, but they have bowed their heads and said yes. They are convinced that this is their choice. The church has led them to believe that spiritual self mutilation is what their loving Heavenly Father wants of them.

So will change in the church come through them? Sad little pawns.

So long as the church is successful with that kind of mind control, there will be no change coming from within. MBB is aiding the maintenance of the status quo of the cult's position on gays. It is not advancing equality, it is not advancing love, even if they have that word scrawled on ten thousand signs next time.

Yes, the model and the methodology are identical. And they see absolutely no reason to alter either, or to change direction at the present time. They still think they can win and have it all their way.

Gr8 observation - appears very similar to Stockholm Syndrome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

post--that this is very much part of the reason I left the lds church--not just the gay issue, but intertwined with it. Hell, they were very much controlling my sexuality in terms of 'saving' my ex by asking me to basically sacrifice my "chastity" or whatever it is. I balked over and over again. I got very irritated with the idea that they had a closer relationship with their God and I must be out in left field. We did realize later on that we married to get them out of our business. And from there on out--I balked at all the authority--hated the temple, worked outside the home, refused to meet with the bishop, wouldn't pray in church, etc. I had determined by the time I was married that I didn't want to be like all the other mormon women--like I ever was.

And I also didn't understand the ERA either. It was a nonmo friend of mine who taught me what it meant. I had many neighbors who went to SLC for whatever they did. I obviously wasn't that interested.

And can we forget that we have one of the fighters for ERA right here on our board.