So my wife & I are at an interesting spot.

Short background:
Lots of difficulty & pain in sexual relationship over time largely from mismatched libidos - difficult for both of us.

Years of me looking at porn & hiding it from my wife rationalizing to not hurt her, really because I was stupid and chickenshit. At this point it's been on the table for a while that I look at it. She deals with it but is hurt by it.

We are at a point where we, especially her, are wanting to get closer in our relationship again (I've been waiting for her.)

A big issue is the feeling of hurt she has over porn. Me not doing it doesn't really fix anything because then we get back to the stress that she has to perform to keep me away from it and trust issues. So we sort of have a don't ask / don't tell policy that works reasonably well for a tough situation. I'm willing to not look at porn to help the relationship but it doesn't seem to solve anything (and eventually I'm sure I would slip and watch it again somewhere down the road.)

She has basically come to me and asked me to help her understand why she is still special to me and why she isn't basically the same thing as porn. I understand why it is very different but I don't know how to communicate this is a way that is meaningful to her.

So she if really open right now to trying to be OK with it and let the hurt go.

So now my question:

Can you point me at anything my wife could read/review that would help her to feel less hurt about this. Especially something that would help her understand that fantasy doesn't impact reality? (I understand why it is hurtful to her - I'm not trying to diminish that.) Does anyone have anything you would suggest that she could read that would help her to overcome the hurt she feels?

Watch the five short videos here with your wife:

http://www.iamanexmormon.com/cycle-of-guilt/

The big point is - it only "hurts" her because someone told her she should be hurt. If your porn consumption doesn't take the place of your love life with your wife, then who is being hurt?

Thanks this is a good series. I don't know that my wife would be open to this since it is so negative with the church, but the last video might work which is the most relevant one to our particular issue.

Don't kill me on the spot but have you ever considered viewing porn together with your wife ... I don't know what's available in the states but maybe have her choose something that you could watch together.

Isn't it fairly common knowledge that porn is just about getting off while intimacy with your spouse is about the whole package?

I can always spot a guy who is a little too in to porn. They're the guys at the library staring at the figure of every girl that walks by. They make off-color comments that they think are funny, but are actually inappropriate. Many times, they don't even realize how uncomfortable they make everybody around them.

But if a person can view porn and it doesn't affect their work/school/social life, no problem.

As I get older, I find porn to be hilarious, especially the stuff they film in the US. It's horrible! There is no connection to the intimacy that loving couples experience.

Sorry I'm not much help in convincing your wife that porn is OK. As a married guy who likes porn, I know the two are not the same. Porn has nothing to do with my marriage or the quality of it. They are separate topics.

T-Bone

Yup, US-made pro porn is just about the worst kind out there. Amateur is best, because it's real.

I think we need to consider how much you look at porn as well and if it is causing the sexual problems. If you guys aren't matching up libido wise because of the porn, then the answer (if there is one) will be very different than if the porn does not affect your sexual relationship.

Just a thought.

The porn/masturbation helps to even out the sexual relationship a little. Not the other way around.

I have zero experience with marriage, so maybe my opinion is crap.

That being said, maybe this is the sort of thing an expert's opinion on isn't going to change much. It sounds like something that a lot of talking and working on would change, though. When she sees that you're backing your words up by forsaking porn more and more (whenever she is willing to get down), your actions will really start to show her that you find her desirable.

When she asks you, your opinion has to be valid to her as well, though. She has to realize that you have a biologically-driven sex drive. Instead of going out and dishonoring her and your marriage, you've been finding ways to satisfy it while staying faithful to her. She has to understand that saying "not tonight, honey... in fact, not this week" may satisfy her needs and personal issues, but you are a person, 50% of the relationship, and your needs exist regardless of where she's at.

A relationship isn't about sacrificing who and what you are--it should be two people committed to bettering and nurturing the other person.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2012 05:01PM by flyboy21.

But first, this message. FACT: 99% of couples are "mismatched" timing-wise. One partner ALWAYS wants it more often than the other.

It really sounds to me like Mrs. bc feels the way all Mormon women are taught to feel: inadequate. Look at it this way: all her life she's been told by the church that as a woman she just isn't good enough. All her life she's been told by American advertising and media that she will never look good enough. Vicious cycle goin' down, there. Mrs. bc, like 100 million other American women, hates who and what she is and looks like on a really deep-down gut-wrenching level of self-hate and doesn't even know why.

Guess who is destined to be the lucky recipient of all her low self-esteem? That's right: you.

You can help her get over it, but you may need the assistance and advice of a trained psychologist to do it. If you both work on it with commitment, I guarantee the sex will be WAY better than porn.

The libido thing is a simplification of lots of issues and challenges in our sexual relationship. Mormon upbringing certainly comes to play for part of it. She is fairly confident though.

then whats the problem? does she not want sex?

get her a vibrator: www.adultloveboutique.com

Best gift ever!

You can also order them thru Amazon these days as well.

This is true. Nothing more to add. Well said.

T-Bone

As a woman, I find most porn to be lousy and a turnoff and strictly made for the man's enjoyment.

That said, there are videos from Dane Jones that are couple-oriented and appealing to women. You may be able to subscribe on their website or you can see some videos on youporn.com. click on the Couples category and look for DaneJones in the title.

Good luck!

Porn is healthy for a married man. Guys are visual, they can either look at a stranger online or fantasize about the girl at work. Let your wife choose which are using because no offense ladies but no married man thinks about his wife when he is alone releasing some stress.

captain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> no married man thinks about his wife
> when he is alone releasing some stress.

Unless he's actually attracted to her, of course.

Whenever some brings up the “evils” of porn, I always think of a favorite episode of the BBC comedy “Coupling”. In this episode the character Steve is questioned by a visiting dinner guest about “how” he could ever like a film entitled “Lesbian Spank Inferno” where upon Steve gives the following defense of the whole male heterosexual psyche…….

“Oh, because it's got naked women in it!

Look, I like naked women! I'm a bloke! I'm supposed to like them! We're born like that. We like naked women as soon as we're pulled out of one. Halfway down the birth canal we're already enjoying the view.

Look, it's the four pillars of the male heterosexual psyche. We like: naked women, stockings, lesbians, and Sean Connery best as James Bond. Because that is what being a bloke is. And if you don't like it, darling, join a film collective.

I want to spend the rest of my life with the woman at the end of the table here. But that does not stop me wanting to see several thousand more naked bottoms before I die. Because that's what being a bloke is.

When Man invented fire, he didn't say "Hey, let's cook!" He said: "Great! Now we can see naked bottoms in the dark!" As soon as Caxton invented the printing press we were using it to make pictures of - hey! - naked bottoms. We've turned the Internet into an enormous international database of... naked bottoms.

So, you see, the story of male achievement through the ages, feeble though it may have been, has been the story of our struggle to get a better look at your bottoms. Frankly, girls, I'm not so sure how insulted you really ought to be.”

Men for the most part are visually oriented....we like to look...and for the most part we admit that we like to look.

Women like their porn, er “erotic fiction” in print.

Thanks to E.L. James and her erotic novel / bestselling e-book called "50 Shades of Grey," millions of women – are devouring detailed accounts of a BDSM (bondage and discipline; sadism and masochism) relationship that takes place between an inexperienced female college student and a dashingly dominating and disgustingly rich dude.

So far, the book has sold 2,000,000 copies to date and the Kindle version is selling even better. Currently, there are 357 holds on it at the Milwaukee Public Library. Women are passing it around in social groups like high school students passed around Judy Blume's "Wifey" and "Forever" a few decades ago.

The series is believed to be particularly popular with mainstream women because it offers such an extreme break from their daily lives. Of course, this phenomenon is nothing new and the "Fifty Shades" series could be seen as modern-day Harlequin romances born from bondage fantasies. Women have been hiding their smutty romance novels for generations.

So guess what people we’re sexual creatures…we like sex, we like looking at it, we like reading about it. Now we just need to coordinate getting together and doing it.

You beat me to it....I almost posted the YouTube link to his speech earlier. It's perfect!

I don't really have anything to add to this; however, since my spouse and I have dealt with similar sexual problems (except for the porn thing), I've always wondered if I would have married this person if we had had a sexual relationship before deciding to get married. I'm not a shallow person and I know that life is about more than having sex, but sex is an important part of feeling wanted and loved. I'm sure I would have discovered the sexual incompatibility (which over the years of our marriage has caused problems and made me feel unwanted, rejected, and unloved) and it may have pushed me away. The emotions of our sexual incompatibility have been more hurtful than the physical compulsion of wanting to have sex and not being able to do so. Furthermore, having sex while your spouse is emotionally distant--just going through the motions has been very unfulfilling. There are times when it's good, but not enough to change the balance of my feelings.

One of the problems for me is that I had very fulfilling sexual relationships before I got married. Of course, there were other problems in those relationships--mostly because of being on the young, immature side of life--but the sex per se was great. There was one person I had a great relationship with--sexual and otherwise--but, alas, this person wasn't a Mormon and I walked away. By the time I met my spouse, however, I was trying to be a good Mormon. Consequently, no pre-marrital sex . . . .

I could go on, but I think I'm just purging my own emotions. Thanks for the forum to do so.

Have her read the new book out which has shot to the top of the best seller list, "Ready Player One."

It explains very eloquently the difference between vicarious virtual life and real life. In one chapter, the hero is dumped by the only girlfriend he has ever "had" but he has never met her in person....only their avatars have interacted.

I could go on --terrific book-- because it is in layers and brings up important questions on the nature of reality, which is exactly where your wife is "broken." She has been taught that reality is what 15 old dudes say is reality. She has never routinely contrasted and examined her stray thoughts with reality, but rather with the scriptures, or the teachings of the brethren. It is not her fault.

Like night vision, some things are seen more clearly with an indirect approach. In "Ready Player One," Wade is angry and has the money to buy a sex robot. He realizes that humping a lubricated piece of rubber is even less satisfying than using his hand. Is his hand exciting?

You can see how promising this is to open up some new dialog between the two of you. Meanwhile, take some sex advice from Anagrammy: start talking about fantasies you enjoy while masturbating. Pick the best sexual experiences you've enjoyed with your wife and tell her how you bring those back to mind. And that certain dress. And the time you had sex in a chair--that very chair right there. When you get horney, you think of how great that was and how much fun the two of you had. Emphasize the experience and how THAT was hot.

This will diminish the importance of just a naked body and give your wife the idea that although you look at porn, you are looking for the whole experience, that you want the whole package that only a relationship can give you.

DON'T say things like, "great (body part)" because those change. The perky breasts eventually droop, the perfect hips spread, you get the idea. DO say things like, "great being naked with you...you are so beautiful in this light...let me see your face....etc."

Best of luck

Anagrammy

Yeah, good advice with some land mines to avoid. A few years ago my wife and I were having a rare discussion about fantasies and I mentioned that I wasn't requesting it but the idea of seeing her masturbate was excited. She said it was evil and was mad at me for 3 weeks...

That's bad, man. I'm starting to realize just how serious it is for you.

A non-LDS couples counselor is probably needed. I'm just glad you're a better man than I and willing to work with her.

She's pretty damn awesome in a lot of ways - things are just pretty difficult in this areas sometimes.

This is what happens when a church tells you for the first twenty or so years of your life how nasty and wrong sex is and to avoid it or anything like it at all costs. Suppress, suppress, suppress.

Then one day you get married and suddenly you're supposed to connect intimately with somebody you've barely been allowed to kiss. How do you stop suppressing? Can you ever?

You might be able to increase her libido with flattery. Make her feel beautiful. See, to her, the fact that you're looking at porn without her, can be perceived that she is not attractive enough, even though, intellectually she knows that you love her. Moism is a great petri dish for growing insecurities and killing self esteem. It seems like a vicious cycle though, because it seems you are viewing porn to control your needs. And without that release you'll undoubtedly become grumpy. I second the suggestion to view something together. Have her pick it out. Plus, I agree, since men are visual and women are more cerebral, you might also get her that book fifty shades of grey, and get her sex toys. That should help level out your libidos! Good luck, and have fun!

God I love this board. I love the way you guys think and write and support each other and explore topics that have effected so many of us but that you would never be able to discuss at TSCC or with TBMs.

I have a unique perspective on the porn issue because I have been out of TSCC for over 3 decades which has given me the chance to explore many of lifes issues like porn. Many of the posters are right that it is a difficult topic for your wife because she has been so warped and molded by her exposure to all of the garbage being spued by TSCC. Early on it was obvious that I was sexually mismatched with my wife. We did watch porn together some early in our married life but it didn't seem to help much with the mismatch that we were. I think she got bored too with the marriage and was aching to have the experiences she missed by being raised TBM. What saved us was her decision to go back to school in a distant city. She was gone mostly full time for 3 years and then started working in that city and commuted for 12 years. While it was difficult to be apart it gave both of us the chance to explore other relationships and things like porn. Over the years I have had 4 significant relationships with woman other than my wife. All of those woman were about 20 years younger than I was. All of them were rapacious in bed and had no hang ups about having wild and frequent sex. None of them even knew anything about TSCC. One was a former stripper and was an amazing teacher. (Plus I loved her tattoos). All 4 of them enjoyed porn and used it in our relationship to entertain and create horniness. It wasn't that big of deal, we just watched porn occassionally and it was fun and enfused a certain lustiness into things. Because of that experience I have come to realize that porn is really not an addiction for most of us that are having normal lives, meaning we aren't hung up on what 15 old geezers in SLC think is proper conduct. I can take it or leave it. Sometimes I go years without looking at it, other times I'll watch for a few months and then grow bored with it. Once my wife and I got back together full time and had gained some experience with porn we both admitted that it could be a turn on at times and we took turns picking stuff to watch. Woman clearly pick different stuff than men and I was surprised at some of the nasty stuff my wife would bring home. It actually helped us in the bedroom and we still watch occassionally. YOu may never get your wife to this point, but your are correct in your thinking about the use and effect of porn. It's just a matter of getting her to understand that it really doesn't effect how you feel about her and it can be good entertainment when watched together, it can enhance things in the bedroom. If she really wants to understand you and your sexual needs she'll listen to that sort of explanation and try to get into it with you. Good luck, you sound like you have a pretty tapped down spouse that doesn't understand you or your needs very well.

As a former TBM wife, porn is bad and anyone who views it is evil. Why? That is a head scratcher, no one ever said why but I guess I figured it would cause him to look then act out with other women! That would be adultery and that is big time sin.

So when you are a TBM wife and discover porn in your relationship, what do you do? I freaked and had a self esteem melt down. Despite his assurances that I was real, porn was make believe I still felt like he was cheating on me, if not physically then mentally. If he had to cheat, I must not be sexy enough, good enough, etc.

It took a lot of talking. A lot of reassurances. Time to digest it as "normal" guy behavior. When the song with the "It's you and your hand tonight" lyric comes on it reminds me of discussion about how the big M helps a guy through and provides release but release with someone you love is better. When a sitcom comes on and porn is alluded to, it opened up the discussion that it is not just seedy men out there looking. Looking and releasing is his attempt to be considerate of my needs, not pushing his needs when my desire is less.

There also needs to be some discussion the other way. I'm not sure where you are in life, but a lot of this happened to me when I had small kids. I was exhausted, someone was always touching me and wanted something from me. And wouldn't you know it, as soon as the kids went to bed someone was pawing me and wanted something from me. I needed to feel desired and attractive and seduced all day long. Not just as soon as the kids went to bed.

Over time we have really grown from where we were. A lot of my freedom came from leaving the church. Things lost their bad and good titles and could be experimented with and deemed pleasurable or not pleasurable. We communicate more clearly and directly without the "embarrassment".

Just a question on the masturbation fantasy - was she mad because she thinks masturbation is bad and you were asking her to sin/be evil? Just trying to figure out what made her mad...

Oh, and Oprah.com search Dr. Berman has lots of interesting articles for both of you. She may be more open to her because she is not related to the religion, and has the Dr. title.

You said it so much better!

A lot of the psychology around this topic is so deep and ingrained that the person suffering consciously denies there is anything like that going on inside. Meanwhile, beneath the surface, the self-esteem is being systematically undermined.

It takes a professional to unwrap it and help the person.

She doesn't seem to be the type to watch porn along with her husband or experiment with masterbation.

Sexual intimacy is a natural and healthy activity and is considered a vital element of adult relationships. Currently you and you wife appear to be on different pages sexually.

Eventually you and the wife will need to sit down and start having some frank discussions about sexual intimacy and its place within your relationship. Ignoring or refusing to talk about the issue will not make it go away. You may find that you need to see an experienced therapist to facilitate those discussions in a non threatening relaxed atmosphere as you two examine your relationship.

There are medical conditions which can affect a healthy libido. Its always a good idea to have a good physical to rule out any of these medical conditions. In both male and females the hormone testosterone drives libido. Unusually low levels can result in no or low sex drives in either males or females. Doctors can correct this by prescribing testosterone to bring it up to healthy normal levels.

Once physical conditions have been evaluated and ruled out as the underlying cause then you need to pop the hood on the old mind and try and figure out what’s going on there. That’s where a good therapist comes in. They help us sort through all the accumulative junk and clutter we’ve got stored up there that we’ve accumulated over our lifetimes. More times than not were holding on to unhealthy stuff up there that’s holding us back from living a full authentic life that’s full of joy and happiness.

You owe it yourselves to invest the time and money into discovering your true selves and your path to happiness.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2012 07:15AM by davesnothere.