President Joseph Fielding Smith, the tenth LDS prophet, declared that "Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground."

So the choice is A – prophet or B – fraud

As JFS says, only one choice can be true. Therefore, we can predict that there will be evidence to support the correct choice, and no real evidence to support the other. There may be the appearance of evidence to support both A and B, however, since only A or B can be true (not both), the evidence supporting one side will be legitimate, and the evidence supporting the opposite choice will be fraudulent or misleading.

Evidence supporting choice B
Book of Abraham papyrus
Kinderhook plates
BoM errors, anachronisms
Various accounts of first vision
Smith joined Methodist church in 1828
Smith was convicted of fraudulent activities (arrest records)
Smith lied about not practicing polygamy.

Evidence supporting choice A – none.

Exactly as JFS predicted.

I apologize for sounding dismissive. I know I’m being very one-sided. In fairness, Mormons claim there is evidence to support JS being a prophet. The BoM in and of itself is not evidence – it’s a book, and we have lots of books. There would have to be something about the book which would cause scholars to conclude that it contains ancient writings. To my knowledge, there is nothing.
We know that the evidence supporting choice B is verifiable, which would imply that evidence supporting choice A is not.
Are we to reasonably conclude that the evidence supporting choice B is fraudulent or misleading? Smith claimed the papyrus was written by Abraham. We know it wasn’t. How can we dismiss this evidence as fraudulent or misleading? Joseph Smith was lying, not the Egyptians.
The Kinderhook plates were fake and were designed to catch Smith in the act of lying. They did just that. More evidence that Smith was a fraud.
With so much evidence supporting choice B, and so little evidence supporting choice A, is it not reasonable to conclude that choice B is correct? Smith was a fraud.
Mormons are quick to dismiss evidence on either side and rely on personal revelation to determine their truth, but I think more Mormons today are realizing that the growing body of evidence is very much one-sided, and as JFS makes clear, only one choice is correct.
Is this how many Mormons become exmormons?
Any thoughts on this,anyone?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2012 09:41PM by canadianfriend.

Agree 110%

"Joseph Smith was lying, not the Egyptians."

That phrase tickles me for some reason.

Great answer to JFS's challenge.

It's hard to argue with facts. I believe that is why they don't.

Facts are not their friends. Truth is not useful. But feelings, nothing more than feelings...are everything. Especially when you have been told what to feel, and you, to prove your obedience, feel those feelings in every fiber of your being.

Joe got a few "revelations" right, because he was lucky; hell, if I started spouting holy writ I would eventually predict something correctly. If Joseph Smith predicted correctly that Keanu Reeves would win for best actor, I'd join his believers, because that WOULD require divine intervention...

What the hell has he gotten right, other that obvious shit that others were speculating on as well? Seriously,I know we have had threads about this, but I can't remember tonight. Other than the civil war stuff, what was he right about?

True, he didn't get shit right. The closest thing I can think of is the revelation that South Carolina would break off, however that was pretty much a given for the time, and it didn't actually happen until 30 years later. There were plenty of details about that one which were not correct.

I challenge anyone to find ONE irrefutable revelation.

Js predicted that Porter Rockwell would die with long hair. PR did die with long hair. So, there is ONE that came true.
The fact the PR had long hair all of his life made this an obvious prediction. But JS got this one right......
And that's all he got right folks!

JS was 'half right' about tobacco.

It isn't good for man (at least as ab/used now), but:

healing cattle? (SNL:) REALLY?

he also 'predicted' the civil war would start in S.C.
Well, it's been said that it was known OTHER THAN by JS that S.C. was a place of rebellion/distrust/anger over slavery.

again, 'half right'.

the way I read the thing (claimed to be) about the civil war is that it was predicted as a revolt-rebellion of the oppresses people (Negro Slaves).
Didn't Happen.

Hinckley and Holland also said it is either true or a great fraud. I think other prophets or GAs have said it too.

Is this their way of telling us it is a fraud?

Yes, JS did get a few right, but most wrong.

See my listing at http://packham.n4m.org/prophet.htm

BTW, the Civil War "prophecy" was merely a repetition of what was in newspaper editorials at the time. It was NOT a divinely inspired prophecy.

But there is ONE prophecy that he got right. See my list. (Mormons will not refer to it, however.)

Love it! LOL!

Amazing! I've got to show my TBM wife this JS quote.