My son is not quite twelve. He has been doing laundry for the past day because I believe in labor as fair consequence for crummy behavior. Anyway, he asked me this morning, while having to sort clothes, if I am supposed to wear garments. I told him yes, but I choose not to. Of course he asks why, and I told him I don't like to, they are hot, especially in summer, and that I don't know whose idea it was to make them so long and hot. He then asked if I wear a bra with them. I said yes, and its uncomfortable.......ugh.

I then offered that its difficult for women to have to wear them because for men, its like wearing briefs and a tshirt, but for women,.......and them he finished, "its like wearing briefs and a tshirt!". Lol. Smart kid.

Anyway, I feel a little guilty for admitting something I haven't wanted to share yet. His dad and stepmim are tbm, and everyone in our ward thinks of my child as some spiritual giant. I realize he is just a kid, but part of me feels like I'm chipping away at that, placing doubt where its not necessary.

As my kids get older, how am I going to answer these questions? I've been able to put off questions like, "why don't you have a calling", and "why don't u take the sacrament", but I have a feeling I won't be able to for long.

They are too young for the truth, in all its gory detail. Ugh.

My son is five, and he asks questions like that. I have found that the best way to deal with his questions is complete honesty. That way, when he is older, he will understand that he can trust me to tell him the truth no matter what.

My wife was upset when I told him the truth in answer to his question about the existence of Santa Claus. She wants him to stay a little boy. I want him to be equipped with an active and inquisitive intellect, and he won't get that if I shovel BS down his throat on a regular basis.

Just tell the truth. If you want, you can say, "This is why I do it my way, but other people believe differently." That will get them to understand that there is not only one viewpoint.

>>They are too young for the truth, in all its gory detail.

Why????

The longer you wait the more indoctrinated they will become.

My observation is that usually when people say kids are too young to handle something, it really means the adults can't handle it.

Kids are amazingly adept at dealing with information.

Agreed. As long as they're curious about it rather than having it forced on them, they'll be really receptive and just file it away with out even making quick judgements on it.

I thought that for years, this is exactly the time, don't wait until it's too ingrained. By the time he's a teen he'll be rolling in the dogma, Give him a chance at a normal life please.

Honesty, always.

I am looking forward to the next 5 years of being honest with my kids.

I am not looking forward to my wifes reaction to honesty.

It's a good thing, I think, to let kids have information so they can make their decisions and choices with full disclosure. Nearly 12 is more than old enough that they weigh everything, not just one viewpoint, and make their own decisions about what they think is right and wrong.

My stepson was viewed as a spiritual giant. He always did everything he was told to do.

People at church played on that trait. He had a lot of pressure from teachers, and leaders to go on a mission. His mother was a nevermo, and I think a lot of members thought it was their duty to make sure he was indoctrinated correctly. There were people always trying to take him under their wing and include him in their family. Problem is, he had a family. His father and I had full custody. We did not appreciate the do gooders butting into our business.

There was a bishop who actually told us that we weren't doing a very good job as parents because our son was exceptional and we should be setting exceptional goals for him. We told him we were fully aware of our sons capabilities and didn't need his advice. We never made our children go to church if they didn't want to. We NEVER pressured them to go on a mission. The bishop thought we were horrible because we gave him a choice. Not once did we tell him we expected him to go on a mission.

That particular bishop worked on our son on a daily basis to convince him that we weren't doing right by him, and that he needed to be saving money for a mission. Unfortunately our son and his son were best friends. We did what we could to keep them apart, but it was a difficult situation. They tried to get our son to come and live with them his senior year. We really put our foot down over that one. We sold our house and moved out of the stake.

He did go on to serve a mission. It was his choice. He's very TBM. I wish we would have done more to discourage some of his church choices. In hind sight we shouldn't have let him go to BYU. He was only 16 when he started college, and we thought BYU dorm living would be better than living in dorms away from home at a regular university.

12 years old is not too young to tell your son the truth about your beliefs. However, if you do that be prepared for a mormon backlash. Members will step in and try to override what they see as irresponsible parenting. They will do their best to exert influence over him. Imo you can't start too soon to give him the tools he needs to form his own beliefs, and then have the back bone to stand up for himself.

p.s. I taught my kids to do laundry as soon as they could lift up the lid to the washer. They may complain now, but they will thank you later:)

I think your son is old enough to hear the truth. It sounds like you're still not entirely sure how you feel about Mormonism. Did you stop wearing garments because they're uncomfortable, or because you don't believe they are magical any more? Do you still feel like you're "supposed" to be wearing them? Why would you feel like it's a bad thing to teach your son to doubt something that isn't true? It's totally natural to have ambivalent feelings like that pop up, since you've had years of indoctrination, even if you've figured out logically that it's not true. Maybe spend some time thinking it over and then simply tell your son the truth as you see it, without worrying what TBM ex and stepmom think - you have just as much right to teach your kid the truth as they have to teach him lies. Let him see both sides and make up his own mind.

The truth is this: It's a mormon church expectation and no one is required to wear regulation underwear unless they *want* to do it.

The same is true of all of the mormon church formalities. Unless there's a human health or social advantage, it's best to use individual logic and good sense than to blindly follow.

....wish I could remember my password.....

Anyway, thanks guys. I have appreciated the replies. I was ex'd so I am not "supposed" to wear garments. And after three years, I'm not sad about not wearing them.

However, I probably do feel like I'm "supposed" to be wearing them. I still have a lot of issues to work through. Remember, I go to church every week. And pretty much go so I can keep my finger on the pulse of what and who my kids are involved with. Believe me, there is a scout leader that I won't leave my child with if he's the only leader there.

I appreciated the insight about the "do-gooders" who have already tried to make my hildren part of their families! I had to put a stop to my kids calling every male friend of my ex's (members of the ward) "Uncle so and so". I realize now thats exactly what was going on. My kid doesn't need anymore "families".....he has enough to deal with. I will be on the lookout for that crap!

Also, if my kid, spiritual giant that he is, ends up to be a regular teenager and young person, then they already have their scapegoat.....me. His unrighteous mother. :S

And if he turns out, in their eyes, to become a peter p-hood, then he became that in spite of......me. His unrighteous mother. It's one of those damned if ya do, and damned if ya don't type of things.

I did have a quick chat with him this morning. Used the idea of free agency, and told him that everyone has that right to choose. And I am exercising my right to choose not to wear the garments. He got it, and was cool with it.

If you know its a load of dirty fish tank water, then why not let him know and spare him the pain that lies ahead? How about some Grant Palmer? Twelve year olds, in my opinion, are fully functioning adults. Or, should I say, can function at a higher level than the average adult if given a chance. I dig that you're doing your thing. People would have to beat me over the head with a shovel to keep me from speaking some truth.

A child is never too young to learn that the world is actually made up of people who see things differently from each other and most of them live in communities together and respect the beliefs of others.

This is the foundation you set when the child is four or five years old, so they can understand that they (and others) have choices.

Otherwise, they think the entire world is Mormon or Unvaliant. Of course they want to be the heroes, the valiant ones. They are not taught that these choices are EQUAL with each other.

Respecting and valuing people who are different than you is a non-Mormon concept-- it is reality as opposed to Cult World.

IMHO you handled the situation well, but you are behind the eightball. Your son at twelve deserves to hear the truth from his parents. You have the right to tell your truth and your husband can tell his. There should be no conspiracy to lie to your son and present some "united" dishonest image. Don't you see that he will NEVER trust you unless you are honest? Also, he will never really know who you are, which is the basis of a continuing relationship when you are an adult.

Or you can continue to manipulate what he knows and help yourself to my world where two of my children don't speak to me and my only sister cut me out of her life. I could say they don't know me, but that's little consolation. Why don't they know me?

Because I couldn't bring myself to be H O N E S T. I wanted to be admired more than be known.

I would give anything to go back in time to when my son was twelve and be my real self with my doubts and fears, my feeling of being overwhelmed at time, my fear of not having him with me in the Celestial Kingdom.

The idea that your son is a "Spiritual Giant" is absolutely the seed of narcissism being planted before your very eyes. He is a boy among boys, captain of his own soul and he owes his main allegiance to HIMSELF--to find his own identity and NOT let these Overlords appropriate his identity and turn him into MormoMan.

Save him and you save him a future of life in a futile world where he will never be good enough. And--you may save yourself from being a grandmother who doesn't get to see the grandchildren of the Spiritual Giant because she isn't "faithful" enough.

Think of me as yourself speaking to you from the future, when you are older and having a chance to impart maybe one message to your younger self.

Best,

Anagrammy

just be trying to get you to be open with him. I wouldn't discount that, especially if he's spending time with other family members who know.

But it sounds like the immediate issue is getting you on firmer ground with your beliefs. You've come to an ex Mormon board, so you can easily imagine the response you'll get here.

I think the best way to resolve your lingering doubts is to tell yourself that you really want to know the truth about the church. Once you get to the point of demanding honesty, it doesn't take much study to find out that it's a scam. There are a lot of websites and great books to help you out.

Most of us here wish we'd had honest advice growing up from adults who obviously doubted. And we wish the same for your children.

"Because it doesn't make common sense to me" is a good way to answer questions like that. Let's them know they have choices.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2012 10:43PM by suckafoo.

Oh Anagrammy.......you made me cry......I hear you loud and clear.

I am so afraid. So very, very afraid. I feel like I have "lost" my children to an extent already, to their father, who is so high and mighty.....reads scripture, and says prayers, and administers blessings, and bears testimony ad nauseum. I am afraid if I tell them I'm ex'd that they will think less of me, and worst of all, wonder WHY. And I don't know that I can ever tell them that.

Before I read yours and others' replies about telling them the truth, I had a conversation with my husband tonight over dinner about this. He said the same thing. Truth! That they need to hear it, and he doesn't think its good to keep up at this "thing".

I believe this got started when I was hell bent on going to church in spite of what people thought of me, and showing them all they could not get the best of me, and I wowuld come back and be baptized, and they would see that I'm not BAD, even though I did a BAD THING. That the bad thing does not define me! That I made a mistake, but its not who I *am*.

I tried and tried, but the social consequences proved too great. And I my search for common experiences led me here. And even though I'm one who was ex'd because of sin, the shunning by former friends and family looks and hurts the same way.

Over the past three years, some people who were my friends previously have come around. There have been a few who stood by me, but it has been a very difficult process. I now know that things will *never* be the same for me in that ward.

I thought at the time, too, that the best thing for my kids was to show consistentcy, and be at church for their every special moment, etc. I'm still good with that for however long they need me to support them.

My son has borne testimony and had the entire ward in tears, and had people send him email and notecards abt his testimony. And every time he gets up, he cries, and looks at his dad, for approval, and cries some more.

The pressure from his dad is so severe, that I'm truly afraid my son will also shun me if he knows the truth. And now that I have typed that out, I am almost laughing at what a ridiculous statement that is. He's going to shun me when he DOES find out the truth, and like someone else mentioned......maybe he already KNOWS the truth.

Alright, anyone want to help me prepare to tell my son? And what about my daughter? : /

Before you can tell your kids the truth, you have to work things out for yourself. They've got you convinced that because you "sinned", you deserve your punishment. That's not true. Think about it this way - did your offense actually hurt anyone? Did you break any laws? If so, what would the punishment have been? A month in jail? Probably not even that. And it's been much longer than that, right? Everyone makes mistakes, and it's much healthier to recognize a mistake, learn from it, and move on. Your mistakes don't define you as much as your intentions and your future choices do. No one has the right to make you feel guilty for something you did long ago and wish you hadn't done. You fix whatever you can, apologize, and go on to do better things with your life. The Mormon church is not morally superior to you. Look at some of the things Joseph Smith did - having sex with underage girls, sending men on missions and marrying their wives while they were gone - and he was completely unapologetic, in fact he made up stories about an angel with a sword to justify his actions. Do you really think his followers have a right to condemn you?

I agree with everyone else... just tell them the truth. A LOT of people are going to be lying to them and making them feel uncomfortable in these coming years, so if they have somewhere they can go and get the unvarnished truth, that will be worth more to them than ANYTHING. Whatever the "sin," it's all relative. Back here, outside the cult, it's called "being an adult." We acknowledge that adults sometimes make decisions for a myriad of reasons and these things are a lot more common than anyone wants to believe. As an airline pilot, I've become SO jaded to the notion of marriage--because I see what both married men and women do on a regular basis. So when I hear about that kind of stuff, I don't think "what a scumbag" or anything, I think, "there are problems and temptations that adults face, and some have circumstances that we can't even begin to fathom that lead them to give in to that sort of temptation more than others."

I imagine living one's entire life as a TBM would cause certain people to have certain psychological processes that someone who always had freedom to choose wouldn't have running. The point is that "sin" is a religious code word for "I don't want to take the time to get to understand you, so I'll just lump you into this category where I can pre-judge you and be on my way."

Ironically, Christ was the one who "got it" more than anyone else. Whether he was divine or just some short Middle Eastern guy 2000 years ago, the people he went after weren't the sinners, but the people who stood in judgment of others. The ones who threw their righteousness back in the faces of those who may have been struggling. Regardless of what I think about him being the Son of God, that man had it switched on.

I think your example is going to be better for your kids than you realize. Every parent would love their kid to not even taste one-millionth of the stresses and pressures of the real world, but they will. They'll be faced with the same temptations and struggles that we ALL go through. No one wants to think about that, not THEIR kids, but thinking otherwise is craziness. So be honest. About everything. That allows them to perhaps make more informed decisions than you were ever allowed to make by being trapped by the Morg. Age 13-21 are going to be some shit years. But when they land on their feet, the gratitude they'll have to you for the rest of their lives will show you how invaluable a parent you were--and it will be something your ex will be incapable of giving or even understanding.

You're awesome the way you are :)

You are a victim of brainwashing yourself and that's why it's so hard to choose to be yourself instead of Plastic Mormon Mommy.

Just by telling him the truth, not condemning anyone or any religion, you are taking a huge step in the right direction. You were taught that you were NOT ACCEPTABLE but could be acceptable if you would just perform this checklist of 600 some rules (someone actually counted them--I kid you not.)

That's conditional love, isn't it?

When you show your real self to your son, warts and all, you are showing him that imperfect people are ok, they are loveable. Right now he is thinking if his Dad knew he masturbated, his Dad would be so disappointed--he would not love him. Maybe that's why he's crying when he bears his testimony.

You are telling him HE is loveable no matter what. He will be shocked, that's true. I had a similar experience when I had to tell my twelve year old son that his father was not really his biological dad, rather he was the son of a married man I had an affair with before I met his adopted father.

Here's what honesty might sound like:

"NAME, you know the other day when we were doing laundry you asked about my garments? (Yeah) I told you they were uncomfortable and that's the reason I don't wear them, but that's not the complete truth. I felt bad about not telling you the whole story. You are old enough to explain this to and that's why I suggested we take this walk.

I don't have the same beliefs about the church as you and your father do. I believe (that we don't need a priesthood between us and God/in a God who does not have a body but fills the earth/a creative force/no one really knows and life is about the journey of finding your own meaning for this life/I am in transition, etc....put in a brief truthful statement).

Although I do not have a testimony, I support your ability to sort these matters out for yourself. I believe that part of becoming an adult is to investigate the history of the church and challenge what you have been taught. This is no different for any religion you were raised in.

I want you to know that I believe in you and support your right to be Mormon or whatever. Up until now, I have hidden my true beliefs from you because I thought you might become confused. That may have been a mistake, time will tell.

(He will then ask questions like, "Did you ever believe? What lead you not to believe? Does Dad know you don't believe?)

You being excommunicated is the central part of this only in your own mind. What some "Court of Love" did years ago have nothing to do with your son and the present. If he asks if you are a member, say "I'm not sure. Some years ago they didn't like something I said/did and excommunicated me. I'm not sure if that takes your name off the rolls. I have been more focused on being a good mother to you and your brothers/sisters than what my status is with them.

Your attitude is one of quiet dignity. You are not confessing to a twelve year old. You are not apologizing for believing differently--quite the contrary, you are standing up for what you MOST believe in--the right for each person to investigate the claims made by the church. Is it really what it claims to be? You will fight for the death for his right to make informed choices as he goes forth into the world as an adult.

Be sure he leaves understanding that he has two equal strength parents with different beliefs. Not one weepy, sinful, disgraced parent and one valiant, haloed and worthy parent. Two parents who each have the right to communicate their religious views to their youngsters.

Don't confuse being straight with providing sexual details. If he asks for details, tell him that you are glad he asked because that opens up another area you want to talk to him about.

"Your dad and I differ on the subject of masturbation and I want you to be perfectly clear in understanding my take on it. My view--and most of the world--is that masturbation is a normal part of human sexual development. This is how we learn how our bodies work. Our hand reaches our genitals--that is God's design (or "a no-brainer"). Boys or girls who are made to feel guilty and told masturbate is bad have a much harder time having a good sexual adjustment after marriage. (if you doubt this is true, or need more info, just use the Holy Google for confirmation). Then conclude with, "This is what I believe and you know your father believes differently. You will form your own beliefs going forward with your own life. I love you no matter what you decide for yourself."

Best of luck, sweetie, I know how hard this is. To help strengthen yourself and repair the inner damage the Morg has done to you, I recommend Tara Brach's series "Radical Acceptance." It's available in book and audio series (I love the audio version, which I listen to while doing my senior yoga)

Hugs

Anagrammy

One thought I have is that you are letting this evil, immoral church make you feel bad about your morality.

OK, you made a significant mistake a few years ago. However that mistakes is between you and your husband and your relationship. It doesn't make you a bad person. It certainly doesn't give the world (or the ward) the right to look down on you.

I see you needing to make a shift in your attitude first. You are buying into the church's assessment that you are immoral - you are a good person who made a mistake. Their punishment is not one they ever deserved to give you - and that they are still giving you. You are projecting guilt and shame that the church never had the right to place onto you in how your kids will respond. I suspect your kids will be just fine with it - the person who isn't just fine with it is you. Easier said than done to figure out how to get past that...

Note: When you do tell your kids I don't think it should be an emotion filled "confession." It should just be a matter of fact thing. Very little emotion - just an explanation of what and where things are.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2012 03:07PM by bc.

I realize there are some things social convention dictates should wait, but simple truths about religion? The kid is figuring things out on his own already, I guarantee it.

You only get one shot at educating your children - life is not a dress rehearsal.