I'm in favor of both at certain times but I almost never use either.

It seems to me that most TBMs and a few exmos think if someone is assertive or if they are insistent they must always be loudmouth abrasive and insensive oafs day in and day out.

Not true.

It reminds me of the TBM-types who used to post here and tell everyone that I lay in wait in hopes of ambushing and hosing mishies at every opportunity. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I see profanity and a firm insistent voice the same way I view hosing as a last resort when other more mild tactful measures miserably fail.

My mother promised for years to never preach her religion. She said she didn't turn us in to mishies or locals and she said she respected our right to our own religious decisions. Yet, every once in a while she'd call or write and say she couldn't stand the thought that Satan controlled us and we were doomed to regret our folly for eternity.

When she was about 82 or so she wrote us a letter with her testimony and challenged us to read certain verses in the Bible and BofM. The letter was offensive saying she knew the church was true with more certainty than she knew 2+2=4.

This insulted my DH who loves numbers and is a CPA. He called her and used the F-word and several other words I'd never heard him use.

The result? She is almost 93 years old now and hasn't pushed her religion at either of us since that fateful call. Rudeness and profanity worked as nothing else had.

The same thing happened with my TBM sister. She pulled a similar stunt a year or two later and DH took care of the situation in the same way. Since then, no problems.

He and I are usually fairly socially accomodating and try to be civil and kind to people we meet, but that doesn't mean we must be door mats.

I swore at a stranger who was in my front yard measuring to put in a cell tower on our property. The guy would not show ID or tell me his name or who was employing him, then had the gall to say he'd call the police to make me apologize for my language. I told him he had better identify himself and leave within a minute because on my property I use any language I choose. He was gone before I could reach for my phone.

How many times have I hosed, used profanity, or become belligerent in my life? Very few. But I am a big supporter of rudeness and profanity at the right time and place.

Anyone who can never say no and back it up is doomed to being demeaned, defrauded, raped or assaulted if they live long enough.

I suggest the book The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker if you're unable to deal with confrontation.

If they're total strangers or toxic people who won't quit, there's no need to be a victim of their relentless rudeness just because they like to dish it out but don't like to take it.

"Anyone who can never say no and back it up is doomed to being demeaned, defrauded, raped or assaulted if they live long enough."

Cheryl, I'm living proof of that! I am, by no means, accepting the blame for being attacked and robbed--my TBM family was riddled with psychopaths, and my parents forced me to obey, honor, and trust these people. I literally didn't know any better. I was taught to be a silent victim, a peace-maker, to obey (say yes to ) the priesthood, to trust those in authority. But--later in life, in dealing with the on-going abuse, stealing, and lying of these bullies, I have discovered that they are really cowards. I wish, wish, wish, I had "gotten backup" and hired attorneys, gotten formal restraining orders, screamed and yelled, and treated these monsters like the criminals they were. Instead, I made an effort to give them the benefit of the doubt, keep the peace, and even to love them!

Standing up for my rights, and fighting back, has helped my PTSD. What you are advocating, Cheryl, IMO is essential for survival (especially for women and children).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2012 05:39AM by forestpal.

When you can, I think it is great to use them. I have greatly appreciated people fighting my battles for me when I could not, especially attorneys, and police doing their job, but try getting assistance when a police officer LIES in a report. One lie, and your options seriously diminish, because they have just made you, the victim, out to be a liar. There are a few evil ones out there.

Poor, and disabled people cannot get access to attorneys for most things. After a restraining order was explained to me I decided the tiny chance of protection was outweighed by the possibility I would have to see him or he would find out my address even though they said he could not get it. Within a year I was homeless for months, and moved almost 10 times. After that, I thought it was wise to let it go, because I felt he couldn't find me.

I have fought back afterwards to the best of my ability, but my PTSD is actually preventing me, because either I am not functioning much of the time or when I am, it triggers trauma that immobilizes me.

> Anyone who can never say no and back it up is
> doomed to being demeaned, defrauded, raped or
> assaulted if they live long enough.

Apparently you do not understand the nature of assault or rape. "No" means nothing to these people.

This sounds a lot like SWK's advising women that it is better to die fighting than be raped. Are you saying victims are to be blamed for not being able to "back it up", because if they don't it is inevitable they will be raped or assaulted or demeaned or defrauded? Your statement makes it sound like there is an easy solution to prevent these things. There is always blame when people think the solution is obvious, and easy, and the stupid ones miss it, and the smart, competent ones point it out. It's not that black, and white.

It's easy to think that would never happen to you, because you think you have been tough before, and that you would know just what to do. That's not the nature of rape, and assault - it's not what you think it is, and when you have not been in a life or death situation, you do not know what to do. It's demeaning to blame victims who did the best they could when they felt their lives were threatened.

As for people who cannot deal with "confrontation" - rape, and assault do not equate with hosing missionaries. Violence with the threat of death is not the same as being assertive to rude cult members.

Thanks to my observant nature, and hypervigilance, I am fairly good at reading people's expressions, body language, tone of voice, etc. to know what their intent is. I can usually tell when a person's words do not match their true feelings, but no one is perfect. I have been fooled by sociopaths. At first this was, because of a culture that taught me to be trusting of religion, and people in general, and I learned traumatic lessons there. Still, after that, I observed a few where I knew something was VERY wrong with them, but you should know the best ones are one step ahead of you if not a mile ahead.

So you can blame the victim, and think you have all the tools to do battle with a sociopath, but you just haven't met one or a really good one that wanted to screw up your life. You would not even know what happened until it was too late.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2012 06:30AM by atheist&happy:-).

Use your instincts before the bully gains entry or takes charge.

Equating hosing with rape?? What an lack luster unworthy concept.

Bullies can be life threatening or mildly annoying. The usual naive fraidy cat mormon mishies are dissuaded with a hose.

The dangerous types are another story.

Never, never, never is it the victims fault when bullies do harm. It's always the fault of the aggressor.

That said, a victim doesn't need to roll over and let bad things happen when there are ways to avoid the problems or fight back. Saying no and refusing continued contact at the drop of an early red flag will sometimes head off disaster.

Your reply shows an appalling lack of understanding. Reading the book to gain an understanding of the levels of bullying might help you.

Re: Good grief! "Blaming the victim" is the opposite of what I'm saying.

You said:

> Anyone who can never say no and back it up is
> doomed to being demeaned, defrauded, raped or
> assaulted if they live long enough.

doomed - condemn to certain destruction or death; cause to have an unfortunate and inescapable outcome

To say if you do not do certain things you will have a certain fate sounds like blame to me. You make it sound completely predictable, therefore preventable.

> Use your instincts before the bully gains entry or takes charge.

Instincts are important, but not perfect.

> Equating hosing with rape?? What an lack luster unworthy concept.

You are the one that brought them all up on one post.

> Never, never, never is it the victims fault when
> bullies do harm. It's always the fault of the aggressor.

I agree. People choose violence, and to be predators.

> That said, a victim doesn't need to roll over and
> let bad things happen when there are ways to avoid
> the problems or fight back. Saying no and
> refusing continued contact at the drop of an early
> red flag will sometimes head off disaster.

Just suggesting some victims "roll over and let bad things happen" is offensive. Sometimes you have no choice, and cannot escape a bad situation. Sometimes people put you in dangerous situations you do not want to be in.

> Your reply shows an appalling lack of understanding.

*I* lack understanding? Really? Because I can tell you are clueless. You understand nothing. You read a book, are proud of yourself for being assertive once, and now you are advising this:

> Anyone who can never say no and back it up is
> doomed to being demeaned, defrauded, raped or
> assaulted if they live long enough.

> Reading the book to gain an
> understanding of the levels of bullying might help you.

I read that book years ago after dealing with a criminal, and also bought a book on how to spot liars. THEN I met the worst of them, and they were excellent cons. You could almost admire them except for the cold facts of who they are, and what they do to people, AND get past your disgust, and hatred of them. Those books were written by experts in their field. No one can become an expert by reading a layman's guide to something. A self-help book will not make you an M.D. Yes, the books are valuable, but you cannot say that if someone does not read the book or "say no and back it up" then bad things will certainly happen.

This reminds me of the people who think they became wildly successful all on their own. They forget the help they had on the way from family, and friends or that they were born into wealth to begin with. They already had a head start. They think they know all there is to know about how to be successful when they didn't even have to work at it. You are fortunate if you have not crossed paths with sociopaths, but good fortune does not mean you know how to deal with one. It means you have been lucky.

Also, instincts are not so good when you have medical conditions that impair your cognitive abilities or have to take medication with side effects. My medication slows me down. That's how these meds work. When you need to be quick, and alert at all times, how do you do that on meds that make you slow, and dull?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2012 08:46AM by atheist&happy:-).

It's you who made those unfounded assumptions not me.

atheist&happy:-) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just suggesting some victims "roll over and let bad things happen" is offensive. Sometimes you have no choice, and cannot escape a bad situation.

I'm living proof that standing up to a potential rapist can work in *some* instances. If I did not do so, I would have been raped -- no doubt in my mind. The same man went on to attack other women, one quite badly, before he was finally brought to justice.

I was brave, but I was also very lucky. I correctly guessed that my attacker had no weapon, as threatened, and I also guessed some information that was a partial clue to his identity. He got spooked, released me, and ran off.

However, individual people need to do whatever they need to do in order to survive the attack. In certain situations it is probably best to quietly succumb; I would be the first to admit that. It is never right to blame the victim.

I have always been one to speak my mind. I D to learn to filter things in certain environments. You have to realize that just because you say no and fight, doesn't mean you won't be raped, etc.

True and hopefully that is something all agree with.

This is all about boundaries to me. I think OP was pointing out that sometimes it's appropriate to be tough when enforcing your boundaries especially with folks who don't have any, don't see any and/or don't respect any. Good point.

The other point is that there are those sociopaths against whom there is no way to enforce that boundary any way. Also a good point.

Of course, that doesn't mean anybody should skip the steps of having and maintaining boundaries. (And I know that no one suggested that. I'm just adding here.) It sounds to me like exmos agree that Mormon culture encourages and rewards a lack of boundaries. That's a huge problem and I applaud those of you who learn how to create and maintain your own healthy boundaries in spite of all!

Very insightful Cheryl.

I think that when a person swears all the time, swearing loses its power and just comes off as crass. But when used as an absolute last resort, it can convey a message very powerfully.

I teach urban kids, and in the course of a workday I often have to get my message across to kids who are taller and heavier than me, and very aggressive. They will push me as hard as they can. I don't swear at them, but I do lower my voice, speak very loudly and firmly, and otherwise act like I am not afraid of them and mean business. I think of it as my drill-sergeant mode. Some people will walk all over you if you let them. It is often in your best interests to stand up to those people.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2012 09:57AM by summer.

I put people in to two groups when it comes to rudeness.
1. Good people who happened to do something rude.
2. People who are just rude to everybody.

There might be shades of grey between the categories, but it helps illustrate my point. With the people who are just having a bad day, asking them politely and firmly to back off is enough to settle conflict. But if you run in to a bully, a career a&&hole, you'll either have to go toe to toe with them, or cut them out of your life altogether.

In category 2, there are a. Bullies who will back off and respect you if you stand up to them; and b. Serious a&&holes who thrive on conflict, daring you to lose your cool so they can throw you off-balance.

I was raised by a doormat Mom and an abusive Dad to be a people pleaser. So I had a very difficult time learning how to get along in the world. Simple requests were extremely difficult for me. I would either overdo it or not assert myself enough. Assertiveness is very difficult if you've never done it. Much worse, if you've tried making a reasonable request and been shot down too often, you might just stop trying.

Such is the life of somebody who is learning new life skills. I will tell you how I learned to look the world in the eye. I did a deep search in to the fears that drove my behavior. I learned who I am, the good and bad. And when I uncovered a few experiences in my past that t were very influential in my thinking, it changed everything.

Now, I am able to make reasonable requests and I don't second guess myself or worry about pissing the whole world off.

This will go right over the heads of people who have always had a healthy level of self-esteem. They are the ones who sit back with their arms folded and ask, "Why don't you just grow a pair?"

Easier said than done. If you've had this experience, no explanation is necessary. If you haven't been there, no explanation is adequate. And it's not a matter of choice. It's a matter of doing the inner work to become comfortable in your own skin, then being able to conduct yourself in the world, looking people in the eye.

If you're like me, and you grow up thinking you are a burden and you're not worth having a decent life, you don't dare ask for what is rightfully yours. In fact, you constantly question what is appropriate. Social interaction is excruciating. You start thinking to yourself in the car on the way home, "What did she mean by that? Should I have said what I said? Did I offend anybody?" It's exhausting. What's worse, people who assert normal boundaries seem abrasive, even arrogant.

It's funny. I remember the old me like it was yesterday. But I no longer feel like that.

But that has changed these days. I don't think I'm better or worse. I am just one of the crowd. And that's nice today. And I'm glad I'm not afraid of the world anymore.

T-Bone

Wow. You just explained this so well.

**"If you've had this experience, no explanation is necessary. If you haven't been there, no explanation is adequate"**
Thank you :)

Seconded! Very good description.

I have good days where I can get out of the old habits, and bad days where it's an inescapable maze of confusion.
Compounding the issue, I am massively snarky on the inside, socially inept, and really DO step all over peoples feelings all the time. LOL!

I am so glad for my small circle of friends who LOVE that side of me, even when it's pointed at them.
I've found my family. :)

The thing that I really battle with, is that I will still do too much for other people, although I'm not the doormat I used to be.

And yet it's SO hard to ask people to do unpleasant, but reasonable tasks that they SHOULD be responsible for. I don't want to impose. Clearly, I'm still more willing to do for others than expect FROM others, but I have come a long way.

BTW, I had similar parental profile as yours, except I'd call my dad a highly controlling/emotional stresser type rather than abusive.

Sometimes it's a relief to hear that other people battle with the same feelings.

In my youth I was a submarine sailor. In that culture, profanity is regarded as a performing art.

At one time I had a captain who was DEATH on obscene language. When he would overhear some, he would tell the offending sailors "There may be a time and place for that language, but this is not it."

One day we had a severe depth control casualty. The captain came into the control room in his underwear, actually climbing in because the deck was no longer horizontal. He shouted "Emergency blow! I want this <expletive deleted> on the surface NOW!"

After it was all over (obviously we survived) the control room crew was wondering "Did he actually say that?"

The captain calmly announced "That WAS the time and place."

Of course the racism is a serious problem and has to be eradicated, but there's a lot of funny stuff in this report on profanity.



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/14/world/europe/soccer-star-john-terry-acquitted-in-british-trial-over-racial-slur.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

has to develop the ability, not only to to say "NO", but to say "HELL NO!", as needed. "NO" isn't final enough for some folks. But "hell no" usually ends the discussion.

If everybody were nice and polite, and respected boundaries, we could all be sweet and easy-going all the time. But that just isn't the case. And unfortunately, being easy going can make one a target for being pushed around or taken advantage of.

One of the defining moments of my life came when someone pushed me (when I was still the ultimate doormat) past my limit. When I realized that I didn't CARE if she got mad, and that I WANTED to offend her and get her out of my life permanently, and I didn't care what anybody else thought about the situation, it truly was an epiphany. It changed me forever.

Not every situation requires a person to bring out profanity, or the sledgehammer-type response. In fact, I can't stand the type of person who is always at the ready to fight. The real personal power comes with the ability to respond appropriately to the person and the situation.

The weird things is that the types of people who impose on others have an uncanny ability to know who to target. And it's not the people who can say "Hell no".

imaworkinonit Wrote:
----------------------------------
> The weird things is that the types of people who
> impose on others have an uncanny ability to know
> who to target. And it's not the people who can
> say "Hell no".

Like a moth to the flame. And Vice versa, until the victim learns to break the pattern.

What else is weird is, they have inexhaustible reserves. In particular, a BPD literally uses ALL their time and energy exploiting interpersonal relationships. It's a full time job just keeping up with them and countering their attacks. I could never understand why my BPD/NPD mother would spend so much time on negativity. I think she felt threatened by me because I have a naturally positive outlook that she knows is missing in herself.

+1

Absolutely, sometimes, nothing works as good as some well placed forcefully spoken profanities. That is how I got my family to stop sending me the occassional faith promoting letters and packages.