This is a continued thread.....
from "Apparently, I'm not sincere enough to repent"
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,565327

Wow. Thank you all. You all have wonderful insights, full of perspective. I can't thank you enough for taking the time out of your day, to respond (to yes a minor, 17 still), over what kinda seems like small troubles.

I would specifically like to thank Mia for the helpful comments she gave.

1) My parents are very TBM, and my mom mentions a mission just about everyday. It drives me insane. I don't think I'll be able to just "back out" on this one. "If you live under my roof ur gonna follow my rules" kinda thing. If i need to talk to the bishop i'm just gonna have to do it because I have no where else to go.

2) The bishop isn't some pedophile. He doesn't ever ask for specifics, and i never tell him. I honestly think he's just concerned with my spirituality, but you're all so right in the sense that he has no idea what he's doing. He's actually not that bad of a guy imo.


This is actually perfect timing. Youth Conference is the 19th. I'm certain it wont be fun............... but during that time i will "realize how important it is to repent,"
and how i "sincerely want to devote my life to the savior and my repentance." I'll pull some repentance scripture passages out of my ass and claim it helped me realize how important this decision is and how i want to take the sacrament again. Say that I want to respect woman for what they are and not their appearance, (which is true) and i'll also include i've been talking to a crush in the ward about it and want to "better myself for her." Say I've been praying and fasting to get an answer from the big man up top but it hasn't come yet. I'll pull just about all the tricks out of the book (except the reporting him to the police. thatll just make things worse. sorry xyz) That is when i will ask for a special blessing and thank him. (fantastic idea!) I'll say the planets aligned and God is lookin out for me.

The following interview after that i will come with a huge smile on my face and say that i felt the spirit so strongly reveal to me that i was forgiven of my sins! the thought of getting out of this is actually very exciting. :D

and crying... that'll be the nail in the coffin if i can pull it off.

If none of that works.. I'll keep you guys posted, and definitely use the "badge of honor" totally trash talking about him behind his back. I don't agree with gossiping, but i feel this would be an appropriate justification. It's so nice to listen to people who actually THINK.

My last resort would prolly be something like going in and saying "all of this was a hoax, to see if u'd get a spiritual confirmation on something that wasn't true. I never had a problem with porn, but i wanted to see if the Lord would tell u. I thought i was gonna be able to see the Lord's work first hand, but it never happened. I don't wanna talk anymore...especially with someone who isn't inspired." What do you think??

Ohh kind of off topic, but can any of you sorta "break my testimony" and explain why i would get very emotional talking about the atonement (and sometimes still do even tho i kno it's bs 0_o??). idk why, but it's kinda my last thread hanging with this church, and i want it gone. It just always struck me to the core every time. care to explain?

Again, thanks RfM!

- Jeff

please remember that he has absolutely no legal or moral right to pry into your personal life.

If you have to fake it 'till you make it (out), then that's what has to happen.

Good luck!

Do whatever you need to do to keep things peaceful at home. I personally like the "broken record" technique where you just keep repeating the same thing over and over -- "I understand that it's wrong and I won't do it anymore." But if drama is needed to get through to your bishop, then drama it is.

Make sure that you are planning for when it's time for you to leave home. Start saving your money now and have a plan for if your parents cut you off financially. Your mom mentioning a mission every day is not a good sign for your news going over well.

The Church does not administer the Atonement. The Priesthood does not persuade the Lord.

If anything, you could always ask why full-tithe payers are more likely to be found worthy than nonpayers.

Most Bishops do want you to succeed. They are untrained men who try to do their best. Myself, I have served with several Bishops and I know that they are as varied as any ten men thrown together. Some are better than others, some are asshats. Some are arrogant enough to call a worthiness interview if you are having any kind of difficulties while others will bend over backward to help you.

However, despite the fact that the church is not true and the Priesthood is not godhood in training, if they can help you to overcome personal faults and to see your better self, then there isn't any harm in taking advantage of it. Once you are out of the house and parents' financials you can choose whether to carry on in the church.

Can you "break my testimony"?

This is an excellent question that I personally grappled with. There was a fairly long period of time that I really really tried to keep believing it because of the strong "spiritual" feelings I have had. I understand the struggle deeply.

Short answer:
Emotions are very powerful and feel very very real to us; however, they are an extremely unreliable way to understand reality.

Corollary:
These emotions exist for biological/evolutionary reasons. There are definite reasons why these types of emotions aided survival that have to do with working for the good of the tribe. Religion just came along, discovered these emotions, and used them.

Atonement:
It makes no sense that a God would need to kill someone in order to forgive our sins. As I human I have the capacity to forgive without inflicting punishment - certainly a God would have that capacity. The Jesus atonement myth is simply a regurgitation of many other myths. Also, even if you believe in the atonement that doesn't mean Mormonism is real.

I recommend you read/watch the following:

Top 10 Problems Explained.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ac_fLUHiBw
This will do a great job of cementing your concerns with the LDS church. If you ever see "stunted" on here give him a pat on the back. What I love about this video is that it is so clear and east to understand a follow. It is also well researched and only uses source information that is "church friendly" - so you don't have to worry that it is just something some church hater made up.

Why Smart People Believe Weird Things
http://www.michaelshermer.com/weird-things/excerpt/
This will do a great job of giving you an introduction to "confirmation bias" and explain why people believe stuff that is way out there. It only deals indirectly with religion, but all of the concepts apply.


A guide to Mormon apologetics
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon441.htm
This is an excellent explanation of the tactics and approaches used by those who try to show the church is true despite all the evidence that shows otherwise.

Here be dragons
http://herebedragonsmovie.com/
This has nothing to do with religion but everything applies. It does a good job of talking about a lot of the reasons people give for believing in the church and why they are invalid - in a completely non-threatening non-religious context.

Wives of Joseph Smith
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/
This is a summary of Todd Compton's book In Sacred Loneliness. Read these biographies and your thinking of the LDS church will morph to one of disgust. You will quickly realize just how wrong it is for a church with this kind of a history to be hypocritically judging you for porn.

20 truths
http://20truths.info/
This site does a good job of exploring 20 of the biggest problems with the Mormon church. It can be a bit boring and wordy at times but it is very objective and well researched.

Mormon think
http://mormonthink.com
This is the best over all resource. However it is so huge it can feel a bit overwhelming. A great place to poke around and learn a lot. Ironically, as large as it is, it really on grazes the surface of many of the issues without digging super deep - so it tends to be quite readable and easy to follow.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2012 05:51PM by bc.

Longer answer:

Why I don’t think I can rely on the “Spirit” as a source of truth.
1) The church has a list of hierarchy and rules of who and in what circumstances you can receive revelation. You can receive a revelation but only if it agrees with the church and prophet and only if you have official church stewardship for someone. Therefore it is circular logic - a spiritual prompting is only valid if in line with the prophet, but the only way to validate the prophet is through the spiritual feeling.

2) Spiritual feelings that you should marry someone are only valid if the other person feels it too. So if it can be wrong about who you are to marry how can you trust it for other things? This happened to me personally as a teenager and caused me to make a huge fool of myself by continuing to pursue someone who wasn't interesting - the spirit made me a stalker! (I'm still mortified.) There are many more examples of people having "false" marriage promptings where only 1 of them got the prompting.

3) Why could I go in the temple and feel the spirit bear testimony that the church is not true when fully worthy? It could not have been Satan - therefore I must have been able to create the emotion myself.

4) How come the D&C has so many sections talking about how to know if a revelation is real or not? Answer: because too many members were getting "false" revelations hurting Joseph Smith's authority. More evidence revelation is fallible.

5) How come members of so many other religions have had spiritual experiences just as powerful that their religion is true? Why is a Mormon's spiritual experience more valid than theirs?

6) This general conference talk: http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... y?lang=eng
"A couple of other times as the process moved along, Elder Eyring would turn to me and say, “Well, Brother Rasband, where do you feel this missionary should go?” I would name a particular mission, and Elder Eyring would look at me thoughtfully and say, “No, that’s not it!” He would then continue to assign the missionaries where he had felt prompted."

Finally at the end Rasband guessed the same country as Eyring - once - well at least he got the country right if not the actual mission. Here's evidence that even a general authority can't get revelation consistently right - how are we supposed to be able to count on it?

7) How come I felt a strong spiritual prompting that my ex-bishops 17 year old son with cancer was going to survive? Then he died a year later.

8) Why is the spirit so often ineffective in prompting people do to things that could save major problems. One of many examples is several years ago in Salt Lake, 4-5 preschooler cousins from 3 families had locked themselves in the trunk of the car on the driveway. The very active Mormon parents spent several hours looking for them - not a single one of them felt the spirit to look in the trunk as the children slowly died of the heat mere feet away from their parents

Read "The Age of Reason", by Thomas Paine (author of "Common Sense", which helped precipiate the American Revolution).

He basically trashes the Bible. For hundreds of pages.

It's been too long since I've read it, so I don't even know how much of this is PAINE's:

Why would God need to torture Jesus to forgive us?

What kind of God would torture his children for all eternity if they make a mistake (and don't submit to Jesus)?

How would it encourage our good behavior for God to tell his children that if we mess up, Jesus will basically absolve us of any and all mistakes if we just believe? Is that right?



Online version is at http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/index.htm

dajeffman, I wish I could adopt you and all the other teens and college age kids who find themselves in this predicament. I agree--just tell the bishop what he wants to hear or else stop meeting with him.

Do your parents push you about going to BYU as well?

Some suggestions that might work for yoU:

* I'd keep the peace with your parents and your bishop for now. Concentrate on graduting from high school and getting admitted to a college of your choice, if you are headed to college. Figure out where you want to go to college and how much it would cost for you to go the insitutions of your choice. If you want to go out of state, go get a job delivering pizza or something in that state and get in-state residency to get reduced tuition of you choose a public state institution.

* Upon graduation from high school and/or when you can move out, that may be the best time to sit your parents down and tell them you feel that Mormonism is not the path for you; explain gently that it's no reflection on them, that you appreciate the basic values they've taught you and that you love them. Explain that serving a mission when you do not believe in Mormonimsn is not honest or honorable. ASsure them you are the same boy they have loved all along.

About the pornography use--yes, it's normal for teens to give into their curiosity on this point. It's up to you to determine what role porn will have in your sexuality--however, please, please do not let it become a substitute for a loving relationship.

Good luck to you. You sound like an intelligent and capable person.