For the past couple of years, it seems like I've been looking for a concrete, no possible way that it's misconstrued, reason why the church is not true so I can justify myself in not believing. I have a hard time because I tend to be really good at writing off a lot of the reasons why others stopped believing, not going so far as to defend them, but just seeing them as having not much more substanance/truth than the things the church claims. I don't know... maybe I've been looking for something that is much more difficult for tbms to ignore, like something directly from currently approved church resources that is problematic, or something that can't be explained away by any extent of the imagination.

Really, I kow that it doesn't matter because just like I didn't need to know something as a fact when I started believing, I don't need a sworn statement from Joseph Smith, straight from church archives, saying "it's all a lie," to stop believing. But, part of me still feels like I'm looking for a reason to stop believing, some sort of tangible justification other than "I just don't... too many things don't add up and make me uncomfortable," especially since I have a (mostly, I think) tbm husband to consider.

There are so many, but the Book of Abraham is an absolute sham. It proves he can't translate Egyptian and fabricated the whole thing. 14 Egyptologists looked at the same thing and found that these were common funeral scripts.

Consider this. In the translation of the facsimiles included with the Book of Abraham, it states, "Our Shinehah (sun) gets it's light from Kolob".

That book is canonized doctrine. It is part of the standard works. By being a mormon, you believe that. If that doesn't make you certain of the sham, I don't know what else will.

The book of Abraham was my light bulb moment.

All my life I heard, read your scriptures. Pay attention to feelings you have when you read them. That's the HG telling you of the truthfulness.

I couldn't ever make myself read the BoA. It was so crazy!

Then I read 'about' the BoA and the story around it. For the first time I had an extremely powerful all knowing moment that pertained to the scriptures.

I had been scammed! I knew it. Even worse than that, the church who had scammed me knew it. They had know it probably before I was born! Not a whisper or a peep of truth from them. They are still lying about it. The churches continual lying is even worse than the original lie if you ask me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2012 12:10AM by Mia.

I don't remember who it was, but sonmeone posted recently that people will believe with hardly any proof yet require a lot to actually consider not believing. I think that's been true for me, but in a slightly different context. I figure that if it's possible to have been taken in so easily ad with so little to go on, I want to be more certain that my decison to not believe is basesd on more.

rainwriter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't remember who it was, but sonmeone posted
> recently that people will believe with hardly any
> proof yet require a lot to actually consider not
> believing.

I saw the quote (sorry, I dont recall who posted it). The original author was Mark Twain, who said
"It's easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled."

It's like receiving jury instructions from a judge:

If you determine that the evidence shows a defendant has lied in court, you are under no obligation to believe anything else the defendant says.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2012 03:28AM by steve benson.

I really wanted the church to be true and I tried my darndest to believe in it, but once I learned the truth, there was no going back. However, I spent several years reading EVERYTHING, pro & con, I could to make sure the church was NOT true. I was extremely stubborn and kept holding out that it still might, but I finally, through exhausting all means possible, accepted the fact that it was not.

I started having doubts when TBM's justified polygamy by saying that it was the Lord's way to take care of widows and orphans of JS's time.

Then I thought to myself, "Does a man have to marry a widow to take care of her and her children?" Then the avalanche of doubts started and I realized I've been lied to since the moment I was introduced to BoM.

Try reading an original copy of the book of Mormon... it was given word for word what God wanted. You could also watch the interview of Gordon Hinkley with Larry King on Larry King Live. That interview blew me away when I watched it when it first aired. I couldn't believe I knew more about the teachings of the church than the profit did... Unless, the profit lied to Larry King... so I investigated gordies own talks in conference and things and found that gordie had lied during his interview... and guess what, he wasn't struck down dead by the lord immediately upon the spot. In fact, he lived for several more years! You could also read any conference talk and look at the references they use from the Scriptures or other talks and you'll find they very often mislead the listeners by taking things out of context or twisting the meanings of things or by excluding important parts of the original source... Why would they have a beef for doing such things??? Unless they are full of crap and and not inspired by any God but instead by the rewards of power, money, and status, ect.

and just sit in SM and record the number of times Jesus is mentioned. It will blow your mind! Harold B. this, Lorenzo B. that... the "Profits" are worshipped, not Jesus Christ. There's your evidence it's a cult!

Get out now!

Isn't it interesting that you are looking for something objective and obvious to quit a cult that you (may have) joined on the basis of a burning in the bosom?

The Book of Abraham is the best, in my opinion. The Kinderhook Plates, however, were the Book of Abraham of their day and that didn't spell the end of the church.

As one poster put it, "people can prove anything they want to believe." We say that about Mormons and they say that about apostates. Which is why we have the scientific method for establishing facts that we teach in school.

Remember that the church did not turn to the modern prophet when they received the papyri from which the BOA was supposedly translated, for a corroborating translation from our thank-god-we-have-a-modern-prophet, seer and revelator.

They turned to Hugh Nibley, the more silver-tongued among the faithful, because they needed a Super Apologetic.

If a person continues to believe Joseph Smith is a translator after knowing about the hat and the rock and the Book of Abraham, then I would say the least of their problem is remaining Mormon. I would be worrying about them being able to hold a job.

Anagrammy

Nice!

It's more the opposite. I was looking for a reason to keep believing. I wanted it to be true. Sometimes I still wish it was.

But I couldn't get past the concrete evidence that it's just not true. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Nephites and Lamanites ever existed.

With the population numbers mentioned in the Book of Mormon, you simply can't lose an entire civilization that large, where they've disappeared without a trace.

No examples of their language exists, their buildings, etc. Okay, maybe swords and shields rusted away, but how do you lose the buildings used to smelt these things? They were always talking about writing epistles to one another. This Captain wrote to that Captain. They claimed to be a literate society. So the only person who ever wrote anything in their society was the one writing on the plates that Joseph Smith found? There is no archaeological, linguistic or DNA evidence to go by. They simply didn't exist.

But I absolutely couldn't get past the Book of Abraham, the DNA evidence and what really bothered me was the number of versions of the First Vision that existed. I'd never been told that there wasn't just one version. That upset me. I was shocked, and angry about that.

Then I found out that there was actual evidence that Joseph Smith had been convicted of swindling people and had actually admitted that he had done so in court. They ran the guy out of town.

It would be easy to choose one piece of evidence and pick it apart until you've got yourself convinced that it's really not important. However for me, it was the sheer volume of evidence which finally cracked it for me. The list of concrete evidence became as long as my arm. Make that both arms.

I never dreamed that there was actual concrete evidence which proved that the Church was not true, but there is and it isn't true, and I can never undo that knowledge.

The Book of Mormon is now in the same category as the Book of Abraham -- fraud.

The DNA evidence disproves the major contention of the BoM.

Native American DNA is Asian, not Hebrew.

The additional numerous errors and anachronisms in the book render it false.

This is science, not guesswork.

I don't think you've had your "ah ha" moment yet or your "cog dis" shelf hasn't broken yet, because once one of those things happens, there is no going back to the church. Many describe the incredible feeling of relief once they admit to themselves that the church is not true. Suddenly, everything starts to make sense again. At first you feel relief that you have gotten away from the cult but over time you realize that the untruths of the "gospel" are so obvious that those in charge have to know them too and then you start to get mad about it. You can see the anger in some of the responses to this thread. Jeffery Holland claims that he is not a "dodo" but if that is the case, then he is a con man because he is smart enough to know better.

I obviously would have been screwed if it was true, but I always had that BoA stuff in my head as my lifeline out if I sank too deep in the Morgsand. Read it again and again. Perhaps learn a bit about Hieroglyphics to fully understand what a fraud it is.

And don't worry what anyone else thinks/their feelings. This is about your belief. That is a central part of who you are. Your belief is all that matters. If he can't respect that, he doesn't want YOU. That's really super important.

Maybe this will help:

I'd like to bear my testimony that I know the cojclds was founded by a con-artist. Not just any con-artist but a narcisictic con-artist with a god complex. He and his follwers stole many interesting ideas from many different sources to build up his kingdom here on earth for his glory.

I know there is a man today who also calls himself a prophet and while some of the things he and his first presidency stand for are good there are still some ideas they represent that are mysoginist, rascist and homophobic that indeed hurt people.

I know that if the church were true they would be as honest in their dealings with their fellow men as they expect their members to be in their temple recommend interviews. I know that every religious text claims that Satan is the father of all lies and since the church does not represent itself in an honest light I know it is not God's church.

I know if it is not God's church that it's teachings are all suspect.


But knowing all this doesn't take away from my hope. I hope that I will exist after this life and I hope that I will be with those I love and I hope that whatever comes it will be good.

I say these things in nobody in particular's name amen

No. The concrete reason roadblocks just kept falling out of the sky right in front of me.

I finally realized I could just go another direction. I was not obligated under any circumstances to continue trying to climb over them.