On some of my threads I state that I'm still a TBM and people wonder what I'm doing here then. I think now is the time for a heartfelt thread on that subject.

I was introduced to this site at about age 15 or 16 by my Dad, who was an adult convert, got excommunicated, and did not rejoin. I am now 22 and know about plenty of things that will never see a Sunday School classroom.

However, my mind will come up with 10 or 20 different possible explanations for it all, the biggest one being "those things happened before I was born and don't affect me."

The main reason I'm scared to leave is because I don't want to risk my eternity on it. In my mind, I'm perfectly happy to spend my 70 or so years in the Church if it means I get to go to the Celestial Kingdom. If the Church turned out to be wrong, I figure I'm still saved by mainstream Christianity since I believe in Jesus. I absolutely refuse to accept the possibility of there being no afterlife. I lost my Mom soon after turning 13 and the thought of no afterlife would drive me insane.

I have absolutely no family pressure to stay in the Church, you'd think I would be able to leave quite easily. I won't be able to do that until I can find another way into the Celestial Kingdom though.

This is most definitely a serious post. I'm in semi-questioning mode but will most likely stay in the Church to secure my eternity.

What if god hates Mormons?

What if god hates Christians?

Did you ever think of that?

ETA:

"those things happened before you were born and don't affect you."

Pretty arrogant. That you and your birth are the center of what's important.

Only I am THAT kewl around here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2012 01:38AM by Raptor Jesus.

No, and thinking about it, wouldn't God have mercy on those born into Christian/Mormon surroundings and taught their whole lives that it was the truth? Kind of similar to how Mormons believe even Hitler can be forgiven despite the murder of thousands of Jews.

Because you think or hope it will?

Because some people wrote it down in a book?

Hmmmmmmm.

And it's nice that some people think Hitler will be forgiven.

I guess, good for him, because some people think so.

Any evidence to those claims?

Or shall we just call them thoughts?

Just musings. Wishings. Hopings.

Brah, you gotta read through these links on here again to realize just HOW much of a lie Mormonism is. We all would love to know what is out there for us, but we can't deceive ourselves to be comfortable. You're here because you already know Mormonism is a lie. If there is a "great beyond" and it's all predicated on lies and evil, do you want to be a part of it? Who do you think it is you're serving and worshipping, then?

I think it is interesting and admirable that you have stuck around this board for so long even though you still consider yourself to be a TBM. Sounds like something about it must be intriguing you and keeping your curiosity engaged. Don't give up seeking and don't settle for a "just in case" scenario regarding your eternal destination. The "celestial kingdom" is an invention of Joseph Smith that a very minute percentage of the world's population believes in, even more minute if you count all the people who have ever lived, not just those living now. It is sad that you are willing to sacrifice 70 or more years of your life following the dictates of a very restrictive religious belief system when you yourself are not even 100% sure of what you believe. Your time would be far better spent reading, studying, praying, and actively seeking the truth. Best wishes on your spiritual journey.

PS: According to my understanding, just believing in Jesus in a general sense actually isn't enough to get you "saved by mainstream Christianity". You have to accept that He was/is God (part of the Trinity), and accept his death on the cross as payment for your sins. The good news is after doing that, you don't have to work to earn salvation--it's a free gift that can't be taken away.

I lurked here for years, started posting as Oremtbmlurker(didn't even move to Orem until age 19, for proof of my mass lurkage), realized how trollish that probably sounded and chose a more neutral moniker to start quite a few threads.

I'm well aware that many people here have had horrible experiences in the Church. I simply have not had such an experience. If I were to write about my experience in the Church, I would be talking about how much help it's been for me after my Mom died, and about how much the people in Orem love me even though I moved myself here from Maryland with absolutely no prior ties to Utah.

In essence the Church for me is like a kid that won't stop sucking his thumb, and who has also been told his whole life that steadfastly sucking his thumb will give him eternal life. Reports come out left and right about problems and dangers associated with perpetual thumbsucking, but the kid remains fixated on eternal life. While I don't actually suck my thumb, I'm hoping that illustration will shed some light on me and my state of mind.

Just because you haven't had a horrible experience in the church, doesn't change the fact that it's a false religion. Just because you've been told that the Mormon church is the route to salvation/eternal life doesn't make it true. It will take courage, but it will be so worth it to take steps away from the familiar "thumb" of the Mormon Church and seek the truth.

"The journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step."
Lao Tzu

You are an adult thinking like a child.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2012 02:33AM by Raptor Jesus.

Actually you don't sound like a TBM, I think you're an HBM...Take it slow and keep your mind open. Also take the time to learn about other religions and WHY people believe in religion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2012 01:57AM by serendipityhappens.

Why does it have to be the CK or nothing? The CK or Hell?

"In my father's house are many mansions. If it were not so, I would have told you." God did not tell you about the CK. The CK is something Joseph Smith made up--well, actually, he borrowed the idea from Swedenberg. Think about it. Would God divide Heaven into three degrees? There are MANY mansions. Would he have stupid rules that the telestials can visit the terrestials, but not the celestials, and the terrestials can visit no one, and the celestials can visit everyone? Would a loving God keep families separated, because they didn't join a teenie-weenie cult that existed for only a few hundred years in one teenie-weenie area of America?

I had a close relative, now deceases, that was an Apostle, and he told me, "No one has ever gone to heaven, and come back to report on the details." No one knows what happens after we die.

Read more here on RFM. I was actually comforted to know that the CK was just made up. I fear death much less, now. My ex-Mormon and Mormon children and I all will be together, and my mother and father, who refused to go to the temple, and Mother Theresa, and other really good people who's only sin was wearing the wrong underwear.

Try being free, and you might like it. You don't have to be a sinner to leave the cult. We joined the Christian church of our ancestors--before they apostatized to join JS and become polygamists. Try it for a while, and you will find more love, happiness, and humanity than you ever imagined. The Mormons will threaten you, like they did me. They said God would withdraw His blessings, and that I and my children would fail in life. That was 6 years ago, and we are doing very well. Try your wings for a while. God made you who you are. If you want to go back to Mormonism, the cult will always take you back, and your time and money.

I can't leave yet because my wife and kids are still TBM's, though my wife has come a long way in the last two years. It's only a matter of time.

However, for me, it all boils down to the lies. The sheer volume of deceit in the Mormon church speaks volumes to the contempt leaders have for their "sheep." My integrity and desire for truth are much more important to me than a religion that may or may not be true (and it's not). I would much rather face a God with a clean conscience than "roll the dice," sell out, and hope I chose correctly.

Now may not be the time for you. Keep questioning. Keep seeking the raw, unfiltered truth. It's beautiful and refreshing as it unfolds before your eyes. Let go of the mental gymnastics you are putting yourself through to make the square peg fit the round hole.

+1

I had the same questions when I was questioning the church and arrived at the same point you have. A couple of things that helped me reach my decision to resign:

1. I read a book about cults by a Swiss journalist. It didn't mention LDS at all yet it fit like a glove. Did I really want to belong to a cult?

2. Let's say I was wrong leaving the church. Would God really hold it against me if I made the best choice I could based on the available evidence at the time?

3. Some time after we left, we shared the mormon conception of sealings and eternal families with a non-mormon friend. She couldn't understand it. She believes that everybody would be with their loved ones in the afterlife, no matter what.

If you think about it, the mormon doctrine that you have to display continuing loyalty to an institution before you can see your mother again is very abusive and manipulative. They want you to be afraid so you stay and pay. And you are. They win.

Now, I don't know you or your mother, but if you love eachother and there is an afterlife, do you really think anything can get between you and her? The very thought is absurd.

4. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Once I took the plunge, it was OK. Scary as hell at first, but OK after six months or so. Just go for it and if it doesn't work out for you, you can always go back.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2012 02:06AM by rt.

Since you bring up some hypotheticals, let's assume the BofM is inspired. All through it, the righteous get puffed up and follow their pride and riches, etc. Look at the fancy conference center, and the mall.

Does that sound like something Jesus would be a part of, or the apostate church in the BofM? Maybe the game is to really find Jesus, despite the Devil's new Whore of the Earth Church?

Maybe that is why they want to embrace the fallen church so bad, because they have fallen? Where did Jesus say follow the feelings? He warned about the wolves in sheeps clothing, and said to look to their works. You have read the stories here. Who are the wolves? And the nice little smiles the mormons show is not the good works Jesus was talking about, they are part of the sheep disguise.

You should probably participate in yom kippur, Ramadan, deepavali, etc and consider praying to every god that man has ever created.

Just kidding. But I do remember when I was younger I felt like I should keep all my bases covered just in case. Of course, this is way before I found out about all the lies.

I can testify that nothing about the Mormon Church is true. Joseph invented a church and he actually didnt even do a good job.

Know this and be free.

What on earth is an HBM? I always figured I was TBM since I attend every week, pay my 10%, and cannot imagine my life without the Church. I also know about the quote from Joseph Smith about how even the Telestial Kingdom is so incredible that if we saw it we would instantly kill ourselves to get there. The hell would come from being in a lower kingdom realizing I could have made Celestial but didn't. About the families being seperated over not joining a 182 year old Church, there's the whole baptisms for the dead and spirit paradise/prison thing.

"I also know about the quote from Joseph Smith about how even the Telestial Kingdom is so incredible that if we saw it we would instantly kill ourselves to get there."

He lied - he didn't know anything about what happens after death. This was made up from thin air. It isn't true.

You wrote: "I have absolutely no family pressure to stay in the Church, you'd think I would be able to leave quite easily."

Actually, I wouldn't: Those fears have been brainwashed into you and are designed to keep you from leaving. I left 4+ years ago but there are still some residual fears/insecurities coming to haunt me every now and again.

Try mapping your fears and insecurities. Being aware of them is already a huge step into dealing with them.

Take it one step at a time. Once you get over the idea that every little (or major) decision you make in life has an "eternal consequence" then you're free to make mistakes - and correct them if necessary. Even if you decided to leave the curch and find out some years later that it was a mistake - why should any loving god want to punish you for trying to be honest with him and yourself?

I think HBM means "half believing Mormon". Based on what you've written, it seems to describe you. Don't be offended, in the context of this board HBM is much more positive than TBM!

No offense taken, I just haven't run across the phrase. I've heard of New Order Mormons and Reformed Mormons though.

One more thing I should probably mention. While I am single now, I do look forward to the day I marry. I consider marriage "until death do you part" to be a colossal rip off and temple marriage is the only way I know of to "break the grave" when it comes to marriage. And yes, I am quite child-like in many ways, perhaps that's a result of being autistic. My love of Primary Songs is even more proof of that on top of my thumb analogy.

"I consider marriage "until death do you part" to be a colossal rip off and temple marriage is the only way I know of to "break the grave" when it comes to marriage."

The way to "break the grave" when it comes to marriage is to include "for all time and eternity" to the vows you recite when you get married (and it doesn't have to be in a mormon temple). The vows you make with your loved one has more authority and effect than a made-up ceremony that a corporation sets up. If it is what you and your wife have set in stone in your wedding vows, it will come to pass.

"until death do you part" means you are separated by death but once you're both dead you are reunited in heaven.

Truthfully, I had no idea about that one. Until death do you part just sounded scary, and by the time I was old enough to know about that phrase, I had heard my fair share about temple marriage.

mleblanc138 Wrote:
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> Truthfully, I had no idea about that one.

It's a fundamental Christian belief. All Christians believe that they will be reunited with their families and loved ones in the afterlife.

"Till death do you part" means that you are free to remarry once your spouse dies. Mormons do the same despite their "eternal" marriages.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2012 03:55AM by summer.

Don't make the mistake of staying in the church. The first time I started questioning the church a little bit I was 20 years old on a mission. Unfortunately, I convincced myself it would be too embarrasing to return home early, unconvinced of the truth of the church. So I threw myself into religous service. And do you know what? It felt great.....for a while. It wasn't until I gained more experience and got older did I realize the pain and unhappiness that the church was causing me and others. By the time I figured it all out I could only wish I could go back in time and do things different. But as you probably know, there aren't really any do overs in life. You make choices and live with the consequences. You may choose to stay in the church, but I promise you, someday you'll regret it. Everyone does. Only some of us are brave enough to admit our mistakes and try to start over. Good luck. I am sure we are all wishing you the best.

You are trusting that Joseph Smith told the truth about the first vision, the Golden plates, etc. There is no evidence that he was a truthful individual, and plenty of evidence that he was not.

I think that it is hard for good and decent people to understand such a personality. It is almost beyond comprehension. He was a con artist -- a full time, unrepentant practicioner of the con. Those people who were not his very close friends and allies were his marks -- people to be used and taken advantage of. All of them. Every last one. All of you.

You don't think that way, so you don't get it. You are used to people generally telling you the truth and operating in an honest manner. You behave that way yourself. Most people are that way, and would be that way, church or no church. But a very few are not. Joseph Smith was one of the very few. There was not a good nor decent bone in his body. He lived solely to further his own aims.

*************************************

I want you to think of the concept of opportunity cost. For every opportunity that you take advantage of, there is a cost in terms of what you have to give up in exchange. In your case, the opportunity cost of being an active member is in large chunks of your time and money, your privacy, your personal choices in terms of what you wear and drink, etc. These costs are not trivial. The time that you give up is time that could be spent with loved ones. The money that you give up represents funds that could be used to help make you and your family happy, safe, and secure. The privacy that you give up could result in a loss of dignity and adult self-determination.

However if your participation in the LDS church makes you happy, have at it. Just be sure that most or all aspects make you happy. Be very self-aware of your emotions in this regard. Don't try to fool yourself. When you are sitting in SM, ask yourself, are you happy? When you write your tithing check at the end of the year, ask, are you happy? When you put on your garments on a 100 degree day ask, does this make me happy? The Dalai Lama has said: The purpose of life is to be happy. This very wise and learned man didn't say, the purpose of life is to suffer, or to be useful, or to show compassion for others, or to seek after enlightenment. No, not any of the above -- the purpose of life is to be happy.

Do you have any children yet? If and when you do, how would you feel if some or all of those children eventually fell away from the church? How would you feel if your spouse eventually fell away from the church? Is your happiness dependent on the choices that other people make?

You say that you believe in Jesus. Have you tried investigating other Christian churches?

You might find it comforting to look around a bit; you would find that all other Christian churches believe in an afterlife, and for the most part, they all teach essentially the same thing--that one achieves salvation through Christ alone, as He Himself taught. The Mormons are the only ones (with the exception of maybe the Amish and a few ither extremist sects) who teach that Christ is not enough, that you have to jump through endless hoops, get married, etc. for exaltation. Perhaps you can find another church to join that would be much less damaging to you in the long run. NO other church will demand a penny from you to allow you to attend, and certainly not to procure a seat in the afterife.

As far as the three different levels, Google Joseph Smith's plagiarism of the 1784 Emmanuel Swedenborg (or Swedenberg--sp?) book. That should put that to rest for you. JS stole the whole thing--CK, TK, the veil, spirit prison, etc., etc.

+1

When I first started doubting this church I had this same mindset. However, after more time and the more I learned, I realized I wasn't being honest with myself. Everything (everything!) was pointing to the church not being "true". I then came to the conclusion that I KNEW if I died and the church WAS true after all, I could confidently stand before god knowing I did my absolutely best to be a seeker of truth,and he would understand that and love me for it. I knew that if there was a god, he would want me to question and not just blindly believe or stay in something because it was comfortable or convenient.

Now it's been four years and I have NO regrets, still "seeking truth", and I've have some crazy wicked spiritual experiences that I didn't even think were possible as a TBM. I know it may feel that if you leave the church, you are leaving "god" and the feeling of "the spirit". From my own experience, leaving mormonism was a huge catalyst for more spiritual growth and more of a genuine connection with "god" (I don't believe in god as a man in the sky, but basically the living force/love of the universe and everything in it...)

I can only tell you that I didn't leave until I was 100% certain that the Church was not true. Once I got to that point, all fear that I was ruining my eternity completely disappeared.

I stayed in for a long time because of fear, but once you really know the truth, I promise that this fear will simply evaporate.

You need to keep studying. Study, study, study, until you know. It will either cement your testimony or lead you to a truth you might not have expected.

But I can tell you that once you know, there is no doubt and no more fear. If you're afraid, then you're simply not at that point yet.