Introverts are punished by TSCC. We are seen as flawed, and TSCC always tries to change us, because there are few places in the cult for introverts.

NT's, especially INT's, are also rare, and for that reason misunderstood. They are a small percentage of the population so you probably do not meet them often.

The morg does not like insight or frank discussion or disagreement, and calls it hate (anti-) or an attack (persecution). Just because I give a frank POV with facts that does not agree with what you think I should be saying, does not make it an attack or hate. Why not ask why, and for an explanation instead of labeling someone as hateful or shouting "attack"?

Obviously people are entitled to their own opinions, and feelings, but since people don't meet NT's often, I think it helps to know not everyone thinks or processes information like an extrovert. People are different, and it is not bad to be an introvert.

This is not 100% true for everyone, and is meant to be humorous, but can explain to others where some INT's are coming from.

http://intjcentral.com/the-compleat-idiots-guide-to-the-intj/3/

"Conversing with an INTJ

Do’s and Don’ts (mostly Don’t’s):

DON’T ask one of us a question unless you really want a truthful answer. We will not sugarcoat it for you, and we don’t tell white lies to spare anyone’s feelings. Do you really, truthfully want to know if those jeans make your ass look fat? Normal person’s response: “Um, no, you look fine. Really.” Honest person’s response: “Well… maybe a different belt would help?” INTJ’s response: “No, it’s not the jeans that make your ass look fat; it’s your fat ass that makes your ass look fat.”

DON’T express an opinion to us unless you are prepared to back it up with sound arguments and well pedigreed facts and evidence. Otherwise do not be surprised when we logically shred your opinion for you and hand it back to you in tatters.

DON’T be repetitive. We have absolutely no patience for that. There’s no need to cover old ground, and we heard you the first time, unless we were zoning out. And if we were zoning out it’s probably because you started repeating yourself.

DON’T take 100 words to say what could have been said in 10. Content-free speech will cause an INTJ to zone out faster than repeating yourself.

DON’T engage us in “small talk”. Keep in mind that you are competing for our attention with all the voices in our heads, and they are bound to be far more interesting than you. The voices are constantly regaling us with things like anagrams of Wayne Newton (Wanton Weeny, We Annoy Newt, New Yawn Tone, …) and candidate titles for parodies of “Carry On My Wayward Son” (“Cary Grant Was Six Foot One”, “Curry On My Egg Foo Yung”, …). Do you really think your talk of the weather or your six year old’s soccer league is going to be more compelling than that? Please. Be realistic.

DON’T look at an INTJ in bewilderment when he/she discloses an idea to you. Yes, it may have required a double somersault of imagination to reach their conclusion. Ask them to take you through it step-by-step; they will happily oblige. Ideas are of ultimate importance to an INTJ, and it is a compliment for them to share their ideas with you. Similarly, failing to give due attention to an INTJ’s idea is a high form of insult.

DO… um… well, we thought there should be at least one “DO” but we can’t think of one. Oh, how about this: DO keep it short."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2012 05:41PM by atheist&happy:-).

You brought back memories.
There is no room in the church for an INT.
Of all the callings I ever had I only enjoyed two.
One my wife and I were in the nursry for a year.
Two many years later I was a financial clerk.
I hated most of my missionary experiences. I hated leadership positions.
Call this person, go see that person, challenge another person to baptism. Knock on 500,000 doors in two years and see what that does to an INT.
I tried to force myself to change into someone that I wasn't. Why is it so hard for me to be what the church expects me to be.
If my ex had read and understood your explanation 30 years ago life may have been really different.

INTJ here too. Thanks for the link. I didn't realize there were a lot of us here, but it's nice to know I'm in good company. Cheers!

I'm an infj, and I feel exactly the same.
see what I did there? Infj all the way.
The morg tends to crush those of us who have the IN-trovert personalities.

Here's more info if anyone is interested:
http://www.infj.org/public/infjness.html
This is an INFJ page, but there are links to the miggs-breyer tests and characteristics/descriptions

of the other personality types.
Reading up on this info helped me on my journey out of the morg.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2012 06:35PM by ambivalent exmo.

+1 me too!

INF here, but I'm a wannabe T lol. The mission was hell for me. Back then I had never heard of introversion/extraversion, and just assumed something was wrong with me. And of course TSCC always tries to guilt introverts into becoming something they're not.

The "Enoch becoming mighty in speaking" scripture in the BoA was used against me countless times. I honestly believed if I was perfectly obediant that my personality would completely change. I"m so glad I'm out of TSCC.

Damn, I relate so much. Nice to read something that brings a bit of comfort and some explanation into how I am.

I am extremely introverted and have been diagnosed with agoraphobia. I've learned to tell Mormons that I cannot, and will not, fellowship.

I can't sit through crowded meetings without experiencing a suffocating sensation. I cannot accept any "calling." And I'm too smart to be pressured into paying a tithe to an organization that is alien to me.

athheist&happy, your list of don'ts is perfect. Those are real violations of my sense of reality.

I've not been diagnosed with agoraphobia,
but I could have been completely happy as a hermit.
As long as I had my books, I'd be ok.
I'm discovering that the constant need to "recharge" from social situations is toning down a bit.
Funny, it started dissipating as soon as I left the morg.
Hmmmmmmm.

Later I figured it out on the level of the truthfulness of religion, and learned about the fraud a few years later, but socially TSCC was always torture. At first, I don't think I figured out the damage from the social part, because I never knew where I fit in, and then at YBU, and the UofU I learned was respected by professors. Also, I wanted a Ph.D., so I knew that was the place for me. Still, associating with LD$ was insulting; these people degraded me. I was always aware of the disdain they had for my education, and wanting to discuss things before obeying, having to have reasons, etc.

Thanks, I like the link too. The FAQ's are hilarious.

"Violations of my sense of reality" describes TSCC perfectly. An introvert in the morg is like being left-handed years ago. I do, and perceive things differently, which does not make me a "wrong" person in need of correcting. The morg "reality" is not the "one true way" to view the world, and live.

My way of functioning in the world is just as valid, even if I am a minority. I get peeved at the attacks on science by people who are living off of, and reaping the rewards of science - brought to them by *introverts*. On the bright side, "nerd culture" is becoming more, and more appreciated.

to "AmIDarkNow?" below:

Society in general mistreats introverts, but LD$ culture is far worse.

Caring for Your Introvert: The habits and needs of a little-understood group, By JONATHAN RAUCH
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2003/03/caring-for-your-introvert/2696/

"Are introverts misunderstood? Wildly. That, it appears, is our lot in life. "It is very difficult for an extrovert to understand an introvert," write the education experts Jill D. Burruss and Lisa Kaenzig. (They are also the source of the quotation in the previous paragraph.) Extroverts are easy for introverts to understand, because extroverts spend so much of their time working out who they are in voluble, and frequently inescapable, interaction with other people. They are as inscrutable as puppy dogs. But the street does not run both ways. Extroverts have little or no grasp of introversion. They assume that company, especially their own, is always welcome. They cannot imagine why someone would need to be alone; indeed, they often take umbrage at the suggestion. As often as I have tried to explain the matter to extroverts, I have never sensed that any of them really understood. They listen for a moment and then go back to barking and yipping."

And....

"With their endless appetite for talk and attention, extroverts also dominate social life, so they tend to set expectations. In our extrovertist society, being outgoing is considered normal and therefore desirable, a mark of happiness, confidence, leadership. Extroverts are seen as bighearted, vibrant, warm, empathic. "People person" is a compliment. Introverts are described with words like "guarded," "loner," "reserved," "taciturn," "self-contained," "private"—narrow, ungenerous words, words that suggest emotional parsimony and smallness of personality. Female introverts, I suspect, must suffer especially. In certain circles, particularly in the Midwest, a man can still sometimes get away with being what they used to call a strong and silent type; introverted women, lacking that alternative, are even more likely than men to be perceived as timid, withdrawn, haughty."



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2012 08:21PM by atheist&happy:-).

However, I am no longer marginalized inside the LDS culture. Now I'm marginalized outside it.

INTP here. I think the INTPs have the hardest time in the church over any other personalities. The church likes everything organized and in it's place. P's are disorganized and anticonformists. I never fit the church's ESFJ mold and actually don't get along with that personality at all. The mission was the worst experience of my life!

Except one.

That is the "mold" they preach obedience to.

And that "mold" is insufferable.

You are correct. ALL people/personality types
are marginalized by LD$INC.
As an introvert, I was punished for thinking instead of proclaiming the party line.
Extroverts are punished as well.
Hell,
Everybody's fair game in a cult.
The only people I could see thriving in the morg
are sociopaths, megalomaniacs, and narcissists.
see: Mittler, Hinkley, psycho bishops, mission prez, stake prez.....

When I read tscc, instead of "the so-called true church",
my brain sees " the soul crushing cult".
I guess either one will work.....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2012 07:31PM by ambivalent exmo.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2012 08:31PM by freenow.

Not to offend anybody here (whoops, I know I did), but ESFJ's are dumb as a rock. LOL. If INTP's are loners, ESFJ's are lemmings.

Interesting, atheist, but it would help if you explained what the heck the labels INTJ, INT, INTP, ESFJ and such ARE. Not everyone is familiar with what these labels mean, where they come from, who gets to slap these definitions on people and how to figure out what your own label is. I'm somewhat familiar with what you are talking about from reading similar posts but I still am not completely clear about your labeling process and probably it is even more incomprehensible to other readers. Thanks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2012 07:17PM by CA girl.

but I get the same results with this abridged version:

http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp

I also get the same results with the Keirsey test (from their book), but here is their site:

Rational™ Portrait of the Mastermind (INTJ)
http://www.keirsey.com/4temps/mastermind.aspx

Overview of the Four Temperaments
http://www.keirsey.com/4temps/overview_temperaments.asp

There are also good books about temperament. Since people have different "skill sets", they have different learning styles, and approach situations like relationships, problem-solving, and occupations differently. Society in general highly favors extroversion.

I am definitely introverted, which is not easy to be in the LDS Church.

I do not know what you would call me. I love people and work with groups - a disabled (mentally) group now. I have low tolerance to BS and I hate A - holes who think that they are so much better than you, This has been my experience in the Church plus the shunning because We (wife & I) are not up to their preceived class. I and my wife know who we are and we live the life of helping others and our family in their needs. The Morg gets nothing - We help groups that help people in need only and do this on a personal basis frequently. Don't come around us trying to sell your wooden nickel as we will cut you off.

I'm just not a social person and I think most religions are for the social at heart.

I had a good laugh reading the do and the don'ts. Being a Mormon INTJ does suck pretty bad. I was always semi-popular and well liked when I was younger at school, and later at work, but always seemed to be forgotten at church, no matter how hard I tried to fit in. I never understood why that was as a TBM. I wish I would have known that I should have just embraced my introvertness, instead of thinking I was just weak. So glad to be out, and to be able to be comfortable with myself.

INTJ is a particularly poor fit for Mormonism. We tend to take rules seriously (the J characteristic), but the rules have to make sense. We don't give a damn who promulgated the rule. That doesn't matter at all to us. It has to make sense. If it does, we're cool with it.

That is, of course, the exact reverse of what Mormon leaders want. They want you to follow the leader, no matter what, and so what if the rule doesn't make sense. You just think too much.

And the NT part is problematic too. These are people for whom evidence matters. Bad news for a Mormon, since the actual evidence makes Mormonism look preposterous.

INFP here, with a slight preference for feeling over thinking. I have a tendency to read facts and information using thought and rationalization, then develop a feeling about it--good/bad, high/low, right/wrong--which is then imprinted in my "hard drive". I don't remember facts or events too well, but I'm more likely to remember the feeling that went with it. If someone asks me why I don't believe in the fraud anymore, I can't remember all the details--it just isn't right! Growing up, I drove my parents crazy because I questioned everything--there had to be a good reason to do or something, or I would rebel.

While I was a member, I almost always turned down callings. It seems I was very fortunate to have never had a tyrannical, Type A bishop to cajole or force me into doing it. I never had any desire to be a leader or president of anything. I remember my teens, and the constant push to bring guests to MIA and church, to bear my testimony (I did it once), and "share the gospel". I brought one friend, and only because they asked to go.

I was also fortunate to live in California instead of Utah. When we'd go to Utah to visit relatives, it was major culture shock for me to see the extreme extroversion and groupthink at play! I don't think I would've survived living there in the midst of mormon country! An old friend from my teen years who moved to Utah when he got married tells me how much he hates it, with so many men vying to reach the pillar of "success" and higher callings and positions. It seems the whole state is like one huge corporate machine. Everyone is expected to be just a cog in the wheel. The word "sheeple" comes to mind;) It feels so good to be free!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2012 09:40PM by gnosticguru.

Just took one of the tests linked to above. In theory I am INTJ. Quite frankly I am skeptical of it's utility, too late now to care, my field of work is science so I suppose I am a good fit. I am sure Jung was a clever guy, but I am not going to stay awake at night worrying about what he thought about my personality type.

Not only am I an introvert but a left handed introvert.
Anticonformist that explaines some things too.
Took rules literally, man did that cause excess suffering.
Rules needed to make sense: No wonder I spent countless hours trying to make sense of the "Word Of Wisdom".
No wonder my brain hung up on "how long can rolling waters remain impure"
I will research more, maybe I am not such an ugly duckling afterall. Or maybe it is OK to accept myself as an ugly duckling.
Thanks so much everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's good for me to know, and I will certainly keep it in mind when I post.

Beth