My kids and I stopped going to church and I have slowly prepared my ten year old for the change. She is not handling it well. She's glad not to go to church but is very upset it isn't true since everyone she knows believes it.

Also she is very confused what is Christian and what is only Mormon as far as beliefs, scriptures, people etc.

She's very upset and worries if Mormonism isn't true then god isn't true and there is no heaven and we won't be together forever.

I find myself reassuring her that god and heaven are real and that we will always be together even though I don't think I believe it. I feel like a hypocrite, liar and failure to reinforce magical thinking. I've told her even if those things weren't real and we all ceased to exist that we wouldn't care because we wouldn't exist. This makes her extremely upset.

I'm not sure what to do. I've slowly released information to her over the past two years. It was not a sudden thing and we struggle with these issues constantly.

I realize she must be the type of person who needs god to exist.I try to tell her to keep an open mind and that there are thousands of religions, philosophies and beliefs and that she doesn't have to figure it out right away. And that no one actually knows the answers to the mysteries of the universe so while it is worthwhile to contemplate, it isn't worth wasting your life fretting over.

FYI: She is extremely intelligent and advanced for her age and I have always kept the conversations age appropriate.

My whole point is this: what do you atheist and agnostic parents tell your kids? What have I done wrong?

here you go

http://www.atheistparents.org/

Are you comfortable at all with telling your daughter that she's old enough to and free to believe what she thinks is true and that it's okay for the two of you to believe different things? Let her know what you know, what you believe, and why, and encourage her to think about the things she knows, believes, and why for herself.

but he's taking a class in the history of Christian thought. Good.

He also thanked me for taking him out of the fundamentalist Baptist church when he was six. It scared the crap out of him.

SayHi2Kolob4Me Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
...
> My whole point is this: what do you atheist and
> agnostic parents tell your kids?
...

An interesting question. My father was an adamant atheist,
and his father before him.

The difference between the two gentlemen was that my
grandfather was a passive atheist -- he merely expressed
a disbelief in any deity. His kids were free to attend
church services, if they wished -- and a couple of them
grew up to be Mormons (the very religion my grandfather
was most opposed to). So, in his case, the teachings of
others, outside the family, filled in the void of his
teaching the kids nothing in particular.

My father was determined not to repeat this "mistake"
(as he put it) of Grandfather BRoadhurst -- and raised
me and my siblings to be professing atheists. From the
age of 4 or 5, I heard every possible reason why religion
was bad and why superstition ruined people's lives.

All of that teaching was still in my head when I was
baptized a Latter Day Saint. I suppose he did the best
he could -- but it was not very effective in my case.

UD

Yes, I've told her she can go to church with her TBM grandparents or if she would like to go to other churches I would accompany her. I've definitely made an effort not to push my beliefs on her since I am so very agnostic. I'm thinking there is nothing after this life but hoping there will be.

your daughter. You've already discovered that Mormonism is false. And it's not harmless, particularly for a young girl. If you let her go with the grandparents, I think that would be opening a can of worms, allowing THEM to take over the indoctrination and setting up a future confrontation. I have some relatives who are trying to extricate themselves from a similar situation.

If it were me, and I were giving her the option to go to the LDS church, I would be the one taking her. Then you remain in the loop and you can easily or gradually pull the plug on the church attendance. And perhaps you could alternate with other churches to expose her to other ideas. And also I would take her completely away from church some weeks . . . camping or something.

I'm an atheist. I never told my kids they had to be atheists, but I exposed them to ideas and critical thinking. It would be fine for them to believe in God or Jesus, but I would have a problem if they got involved with a church that was controlling, or bigoted, or that used shame and fear to keep them in line. I think you just show respect for her belief in God, but you point out problems with the LDS church as they come up in her life. Example: bishop's interviews invade her privacy and her relationship with God. She can keep her belief in God without the LDS church, or without ANY church.

When I told her she could to Mormon church with her grandparents I already knew she would say she didn't want to. Probably if I wasn't secure in knowing that, I wouldn't have made the offer. I just wanted to let her know that I wasn't forcing anything on her and that it was up to her. (or more honestly giving the appearance that it is her decision).

And actually under no circumstances would I allow her to be involved in the church. I view it as destructive to human beings.

However, I do worry that things may change and she decides to go to church but I will cross that bridge when we get to it.

I live with my parents and have been very clear that they are not to proselytize to my kids behind my back.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2012 06:38PM by SayHi2Kolob4Me.

And then when she gets upset, reassure her that you only killed him because he was trying to separate your family in the eternities.

I think I would tell her what I personally believe and then let her believe what she wants/needs to believe.

bc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think I would tell her what I personally believe
> and then let her believe what she wants/needs to
> believe.


I'm not sure where a parent would draw the line, between
known fact and religious belief...

"Daddy, is the earth really only 8,000 years old?"

"Mommy, is global warming really just an atheist lie?"

UD

Introduce her to various religious ideas so she knows that Mormonism is not the beginning and the end of religious thought. Discuss it with her and let her know that nobody knows for sure, but that if there is a god, he isn't going to condemn her for going to the wrong church or not going at all-at least not if he is just. let her make up her own mind and tell her there is no hurry.

As Bona says NOBODY KNOWS. For all anyone knows, even BONA, God, if god exists, is a petty, selfish, jealous god that would get all judgmental about worshiping the wrong God. There is absolutely nothing that assures us that God, if God exists, is "just". Let her look at the state of the world and decide for herself if that is the work of a "just" god.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2012 07:07PM by MJ.

If people 'see' (project) "a petty, selfish, jealous god that would get all judgmental about worshiping the wrong God," that's what they are harboring inside. (Maybe the type of person who gets all-out defensive if anyone holds a different opinion...) One cannot conceive of a creator different from his creation.

That said, the real "justice" of God is likely infinitely more loving than any human conception. The "state of the world" likewise reflects selfish error (we see it only through our own ego or struggle-geared self-sense). Like someone caught up in his own nightmare, can anyone contemplate that reality might be nothing of the kind? Perhaps the justice of God is to see us as the wholly innocent dreamer of the nightmare, and not some sinful figure within it.

You may well disagree with this interpretation (which nevertheless is a venerable spiritual one), but you can just let it co-exist with other interpretations.

> even BONA, God, if god exists, is a petty,
> selfish, jealous god that would get all judgmental
> about worshiping the wrong God. There is
> absolutely nothing that assures us that God, if
> God exists, is "just". Let her look at the state
> of the world and decide for herself if that is the
> work of a "just" god.

I feel it is thus, thus it must be thus.

Yeah, that works soooo well. NOT.

God's justice can be seen all over the world, starving INNOCENT babies, Innocent babies suffering with AIDS, Innocent babies beaten to death, young boys molested by people claiming to be messengers of god....

And the allegedly all powerful god does NOTHING to stop such unjust suffering. How can anyone claim that an all powerful god is just when the all powerful god will not stop unjust suffering?

And no, that is not a projection, the unrelieved, unjust suffering of innocent children is real and documented.

Yeah, I will leave your version of just god where it belongs, with the Easter Bunny, Santa Clause, Thor, Ra, etc. They can all coexist in the imagination.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2012 10:30PM by MJ.

I was taught that religion was something I could decide for myself when I was old enough.

That said, my parents did teach me some great critical thinking skills. Whenever the topic of God or religion was brought up, my parents asked me questions about God. Based on the answers they would ask more questions. The answers I gave were completely my own. The questions, however, lead to some inescapable conclusions about God.

As I got older, my parents stopped asking me questions directly and started asking "Well, what are your thoughts about that?" If I missed something important, then they would ask the direct questions. The older I got, the fewer direct questions I got.

By the time I investigated the LDS, my parents said nothing against the LDS and even supported me in my investigation, taking me to temple square while on vacation, for example.

Later after I had decided that the LDS did not have the answers I was looking for, I had a talk with my parents. During the talk, my parents admitted that they had lived a year in SLC around 1947 and hated the LDS church. I asked them why they didn't say anything while I was investigating. Their response was that it was my decision to make. That they felt I was old enough to make the decision on my own, but most importantly, they knew that I would ask questions that I would need answered, but the LDS church would be unable to answer.

Your situation is clearly different than the way I was raised so I don't know how much my parent's success story would help you.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
...
> During the talk, my parents
> admitted that they had lived a
> year in SLC around 1947 and
> hated the LDS church.

For mine, the year was 1946 and they had a very very
difficult time in finding a place to live, or work, or
even being served in a restaurant.

My father was injured in WWII, and for some reason
shipped to SLC. I guess there was a veterans hospital
there at the time. My mother (then not yet married)
came to see him. When she tried to find a hotel room,
she was told "LDS only." When she tried to eat at a
cafe, there was no table available for non-Mormons.
Every single job she applied for was answered with
"non-LDS need not apply." Finally she got part-time
work in the same hospital treating my father, and
board and room in a small house with 20 other non-LDS
girls who were temporarily in the city.

1946-47 were rough years for non-Mormons in Utah. I've
been reading the "Deseret News" for that era, and come
away cringing. I was conceived there, but luckily I
was born elsewhere.

But my father did not just hate Mormons -- he hated
Quakers, Presbyterians and Shintoists just as much.

UD

it really sells them short on THIS LIFE. The time to be happy, and live life is now. I really think emphasis on now is important, because it really is all we have. Everything else is just wishful thinking.

Maybe she puts a lot of trust in authority figures, but whatever the reason, she believes that, because it is what she has been told to believe.

A lot of people on the board suggest doing things that are more fun, because boring cult indoctrination cannot compete with real life. Why sit in a meeting, and imagine up a blissful afterlife to make up for the life you are missing out on, because you are in a boring meeting?

Instead of being born to believe, I think its more likely TSCC has been all-consuming in her life, and it is a shock to separate from it. It sounds like she has been indoctrinated well. This is how the cult gets a lot of older people to stay in. Their social connections, and entire life, and reputation become inseparable from the cult. When I was a kid I always had fun things to do, and things to explore. My parents encouraged me to pursue my hobbies, and cycling, and I even had a paper route. I am an introvert, so maybe she needs more social connections, and activities outside of the cult.

She has a lot of fears. I don't think fear over imaginary things is healthy. Making life decisions from fear or to alleviate fear is not a good option or sound choice. She is too young to make such a lifelong commitment, and especially to make it out of fear. TSCC loves to prey on the vulnerable. Maybe you can find ways to alleviate her fears. For me facts, and reason work, but my only experience here is I was once 10. Although, when I was 12 we studied mythology, and the Iliad, etc. It's been a long time since I have watched Joseph Campbell, but if she knew how all myths are pretty much the same theme that might eliminate her worries about trying to sort it all out, and give her a foundation for understanding religion in general. When you understand how there are so many which are so similar, and how a religion's survival is based on chance, often brutality, but not divine favor, it is easier to see the absurdity that there is *one* true one out there. That would be one fear educated out of existence. If you don't think you believe it, then learning these things is something you could do together.

This has a great summary of temperament type in children, and how it affects their learning styles. I don't think anyone needs indoctrination, but she might need structure or something else, that does not need to be found in religion. The real world does all things better than religion.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:N0Xd0QZfIX8J:www.chhsweb.ca/docs/homework/Temperament%2520Types.doc+%22the+sj+child+is+apt+to+enjoy+having+routines%22&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjWisw6k6l_rtx8Swo7q0QKOUvlHMAL4cnd364eBgin5thtVkQ4tDGafJ3Bv5kLzy5vCwRnSK_-adV-2sHdVR2EHy48xDmDC9Hl7POUshh_-hfF--0xaJWB6AFrmleT5rZjYYvv&sig=AHIEtbTvLx49zTJzYegEg81D2OrdCjuUpQ

Here are some resources for raising freethinkers:

Parenting Beyond Belief has resources for raising freethinkers.

http://www.parentingbeyondbelief.com/

Recommended Books & DVD's:
http://www.parentingbeyondbelief.com/resources/

At the bottom of the page:

Links

Parents’ Corner on the Secular Web: http://www.infidels.org/families/parents/
America Online chat and message boards for atheist parents: Keyword Atheism, follow links
Yahoo’s Atheist Parenting group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atheistparenting/
iVillage Atheist/Agnostic Parenting message board: http://messageboards.ivillage.com/iv-ppatheist
Atheist Parents: www.atheistparents.org
Family of Humanists: www.familyofhumanists.org
Ethical Atheist: www.ethicalatheist.org
Atheist Alliance Family Issues: www.atheistalliance.org – click on Family Issues
Humanist Network News – Sweet Reason: www.humanistnetworknews.org
American Atheists Youth and Family page: www.atheists.org/family/
Agnostic Mom: www.agnosticmom.com
The Atheist Mama: www.theatheistmama.com
Religious Tolerance www.religioustolerance.org
Beliefnet Belief-O-Matic Quiz www.beliefnet.com
Bible Gateway www.biblegateway.com
Websites for Secular Celebrations and Holidays

Secular Seasons www.secularseasons.org
Secular Celebrations www.secular-celebrations.com
The Darwin Day Program www.darwinday.org
Earth Day Network www.earthday.org
National Geographic Xpeditions www.nationalgeographic.com/xpeditions
Freedom From Religion Foundation www.ffrf.org
Family Education's "Build Your Own Stonehenge" http://fun.familyeducation.com/outdoor-activities/winter/35028.html
Festivus: The Website for the Rest of Us www.festivusbook.com
Secular Holiday Cards

Council For Secular Humanism www.secularhumanism.org/cards/
Abundant Earth www.abundantearth.com
Blue Mountain Arts www.bluemountain.com
Humanist celebrants and ceremonies

The Humanist Society www.humanist-society.org
The British Humanist Association www.humanism.org.uk – click on Ceremonies
Organizations

Freethought Directory: http://atheistalliance.org/directory/list.php
American Atheists (AA): www.atheists.org, www.atheists.org/family
American Ethical Union (AEU) aka Ethical Culture: www.aeu.org
American Humanist Association (AHA): www.americanhumanist.org
Atheist Alliance International (AAI): www.atheistalliance.org
Council for Secular Humanism (CSH): www.secularhumanism.org, www.inquiringminds.org/education
Freedom from Religion Foundation (FFRF): www.ffrf.org
Secular Student Alliance (SSA): http://www.secularstudents.org/
The Skeptics Society: www.skeptic.com
Society for Humanistic Judaism (SHJ): http://www.shj.org/
The Dougy Center for Grieving Children & Families www.dougy.org
The Good Grief Program at Boston Medical Center: www.bmc.org/pediatrics/special/GoodGrief/overview.html
Inquiring Minds: www.inquiringminds.org
National Geographic Xpeditions: www.nationalgeographic.com/xpeditions


http://godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Debate.html

For Atheist Families & Children

Blog: The Meming of Life
Video: A Children's Guide to Traditional Religion
Atheist Parents
Raising Children with Secular Values in a Religious World by Natalie Angier
Universe Stories: Books & Programs for Kids
End Hereditary Religion
Godless Children & Family Religious Traditions: What Should Atheists Do?
Books:
* Just Pretend: A Freethought Book for Children
* Parenting Beyond Belief: On Raising Ethical, Caring Kids Without Religion
* Raising Freethinkers
* Onion Breath
* Branton’s Blossoms by Waymore Dendrites
* Illustrated Stories from the Bible (that they won't tell you in Sunday school) by Paul Farrell

The Magic of Reality: How We Know What's Really True, by Richard Dawkins
http://www.amazon.com/The-Magic-Reality-Whats-Really/dp/1439192812
This is a book for children.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2012 07:57PM by atheist&happy:-).

Thank you all for the responses and helpful links. I will definitely be using those resources because obviously everything I've said is wrong since it seems to bring no comfort to her troubled mind.

One reason it is baffling to me to see the amount of indoctrination in her is because I have never taught any Mormon doctrine to her. We were only active for 2 or 3 years and even then only attended once or twice a month. So she really hasn't been to church much or taught Mormon teachings from her parents. It shows me how powerfully the Mormon doctrine can infest people.

Exercise is good for everyone's health, and endorphins are good for mood.

Even though I was introverted I had my bicycle, swimming, basketball, baseball, and lots of activity. My parents would let the community church have us for a few hours in the summer for vacation bible school. Meeting other kids was OK, learning my books of the bible was fine, but meeting in that dark basement could not compete with the sunshine, and things to do outside.

I think you can learn a thing or two from the society I live in. The biggest group of believers where I live refuse to accept all the petty rules and ridiculous dogma of religion. Their religion is simple: god is good, god is bigger than any religion, and there's some kind of existence after death.

If your kid needs a god, then she can search in herself for one, she doesn't need to rely on fraudulent holy books that turn good people into judgemental bigots.

They wanted to know what happens when things die. So we broke it down as simply as we could:

When things die, and all things do, we bury them in the ground. They break up into little tiny pieces. Part of them becomes the grass, part of them becomes the worms, part of them becomes the dirt, part of them becomes the butterflies and birds. The same thing will happen to us someday. It will be very sad but right now we have each other. We can love each other and be happy. We can help those who need our help. We can lead good, happy lives.