So my wife works part time two evenings a week as well as some during the day. I don't like the two evenings a week. I don't have a problem with her working - I think it's great. I really have a hard time with her being gone at work the 2 nights a week with how busy our lives our - 1 night didn't bother me but 2 does.

Sunday is messed up with church, Monday was messed up with family night (she has agreed to take religion out of it so that is a huge improvement), Tuesday evening she is gone at work, Wednesday she is gone at work. Thursday she is often doing some church thing - cub scouts, relief society quilting night, etc. So it seems like the only normal family evenings are Friday & Saturday.

To clarify her job is not for the money. We aren't complaining about the extra money, but there isn't a need for it and it isn't very much money.

I hoped I would get over it - but 8 months later after she picked up the 2nd night it still bothers me.

To be completely honest with myself & you I feel a bit abandoned in that for her the job is essentially a leisure activity (she is the one who says that is the case) so I have a hard time being motivated to cook, clean, etc. while she is gone.

Most of what bothers me though is to me our family & family time just feels off and fragmented because of this schedule.

I ask myself if I am being sexist in this? She is willing to drop the 2nd night if I push hard enough for it by I worry that I am very wrong in doing so?

Any thoughts?

If it seems ok for you to do the exact same thing, then it isnt sexist. If anything feels off, maybe it is sexist.I dont think she should be punished for actually liking what she gets paid to do so that should not factor in. And I dont understand why you should not be motivated to cook and clean because she might be enjoying herself. That part smacks of sexist.

But the fact you are even questioning makes me think you two will work it out. I dont think its the job, I think its the church busywork that should go!

That's a good way of thinking of it.

You are definitely right on the part that I worry about it being sexist.

Part of it thinks I am being sexist.

Part of me feels abandoned.

Here's more of my thinking (not saying it is right):
She is the one who wants the house to be clean - I don't really care. However, she is so busy that she doesn't have time to clean much (even though I work full time while she works part time.) So I am pulling what feels like an unfair share of the load. My thoughts go along the lines of - if she doesn't care enough to be here and work on this why should I?

I am fairly feminist in how I see things and imo you don't read like you're being sexist. You sound like you miss your wife.

Thanks.

The part that worries me is that I am resentful of being stuck doing the work around the house and worry that I am casting it as woman's work somewhere in the deep abyss of my Mormon programming.

Would you rather SHE be "stuck doing the work around the house" than you? If the answer is 'yes' then you are being sexist.

"I have a hard time being motivated to cook, clean, etc. while she is gone." Are you motivated to do these things when she IS at home? If the answer is 'no' then you are being sexist.

I think if you were being sexist you would be telling her that you dont like it when she is off doing work outside the home because she is a woman and should stay home with the kids because it is her "womanly duty."

What it sounds like to me is you want to spend more time with her, and you need more help around the house... am I right? As long as you two are working together at keeping up the house, I dont see how it's sexist. Im sure she would be upset if you were always gone because she would want to spend more help and time with you as well.

I think you are being perfectly reasonable, just make sure you let her know that you are having a hard time running the house alone and being away from her, and you need help and want to spend more time with her.

If I were her, I would be happy that you want me around more... but that's just me.

I worry that deep down part of my motivation is exactly what you say in your first paragraph. I don't think it his. I hope it isn't. But I worry that it is.

Your second paragraph is quite accurate. Now she does a lot around the house and running this - especially while I am at work full time. However it feels like the teamwork is gone on the weekday evenings to me. For some reason that 2nd night just makes me feel a huge loss of "us" and "team".

With that said I think I have been guilty of it the other way around tons in our marriage. So I also feel like a hypocrite. But here we are 8 months later and it still bothers me immensely.

Is that possible?

For her it might be a way to get out of the house and enjoy something that she is interested in that is not "all-about-the-family". Which is kinna what you do when you go to work...more or less.

But I also hear your side being that it takes away from family time when you are available.

If you aren't interested in the cooking, cleaning, etc., when she isn't there, then maybe make one of those evenings an "order-out dinner night" with pizza or chinese or ? for you & the kids, so cleanup is fast and easy.

She is somewhat limited in her options of moving to a day schedule. She is a weight watchers leader so she can only pick up another day shift if one becomes available. At this point if a day shift were to come available she would probably take it and also keep the evening shift as well.

She could certainly find additional work in other areas, but she isn't doing it for the money. It's a pretty rewarding job because 1) she gets to help people, 2) a lot of those attending really like her & vise versa it's a great social thing, 3) these women look up to her and she gets lots of comments about how skinny & beautiful she is. I actually love what the job has done for her - it's been great for her confidence and she is very good at it.

What might be sexist is the method with which you chose to remedy it...LOL!

But I sense that you aren't that kind of guy anyway.

IMHO, no, you are not being sexist. You work full time. She works part time. Additionally, she has church activities that take her away from you (and the kids if you have any). Of course you feel abandoned and swamped by the extra housework, cooking, etc., required of you because of her absence. Of course you miss her.

If your wife loves her job, she might want to give up some of her Morg activities to free up more time to share with you.

Absence does not always make the heart grow fonder.

Sending good thoughts your way that the two of you can resolve this.

If money isn't the issue, spend some of it on a cleaning person for a couple of hours a week. Get that out of the equation.

You knew she liked a clean house when you married her. (That's a little joke based on how she probably thought you were a TBM and then you broke your covenants.)

Have you discussed cutting back church callings in return for her added hours away? What did she say?

You might think about house work in this way. Its not womans work its not mans work its the family's work. Anyone who is at home should do the work regaurdless of what you think. My husband trained me years ago very well. We would both work 40 plus hours a week and I would come home and think that I should be able to sit around. He had not problem with me doing that but he also required the house to stay relatively clean so he would get up and do the house work. I could take that for about 5 minutes and then I could see that its just me being lazy. I learned that it doesn't matter who does it just that it gets done.
Now I choose to stay at home. I do not always get everything done everyday but the house stays clean. However if I have a day that I don't feel like getting anything done then when my husband comes home he pitches in to make everything run more smoothly. I do not take advantage of him and he does not take advantage of me. So maybe...you might change the way you look at it.

Not sexist but maybe resentful because beyond the two nights she works, she's involved with church activity. So maybe if the church activities were taken out of the picture, you'd be more OK with her working two nights a week. Am I close? Not?

When I was a SAHM I HATED housework but I did it because I felt this was my contribution while my then-husband was working full-time outside of the house. We both pulled our loads. But he resented it when I took extra time away from the house when he was home because of my involvement with church callings. He felt I should be there exclusively for him. Once I left the church, interestingly, he said, "Thank god because now you're not going to be so busy with other things." Well, guess what? I started volunteering on our community council and was involved in the redesign of a neighborhood. He was pissed. But as a SAHM, I needed another outlet, an outlet involving adult activities, to keep me sane and healthy. My husband and my kids were the most important people in my life, but not my sole reason for living. But that's what he wanted me to be, even after leaving the morg. Controlling? Yes. He was when we were together. Are you like this? I don't think so.

Perhaps you are onto something.

I think the biggest thing is for me, in my mind my sense of family is that we are together somewhat as a family on weeknights.

I totally recognize her need for an outlet and do a pretty good job of encouraging it overall.

However I think for me there is something "sacred" - not sure what the word is about just being home & together fairly often on Tues, Wed, Thur evenings. Life being busy and that not happening is just fine, but having 2 of these 3 nights always scheduled for us to be apart is what I think really bothers me, DESPITE my understanding that she needs an outlet.

There seems to be different expectations you both have and a discussion about compromise would be good. I wished my then-husband would see the good I was doing outside of the home and be like, "Way to go, toto, this is awesome," but instead I got, "Why are you always gone?" (Which wasn't true, I was doing stuff like only once or twice on weeknights.) I wanted to be appreciated for more than just raising the kids well (which I didn't get) or cleaning the house (which I didn't clean well enough, I admit, I was an awful homemaker but I tried to make up for it with my awesome meals). He seemed to always point out my mistakes and expressed negative views about my behavior and attitudes. I didn't realize how bad it was until a person witnessed his remarks towards me one time when they were in our house and took me aside to say, "I'm so sorry. Are you OK? I didn't know he talked like that to you." I was like, "Huh?" because I was so used to his negative remarks I thought it was normal.

Maybe when you talk with her, listen first to why she engages in things before you give your point of view. Maybe she's resentful because FHE's don't have a religious element and her "out" is to indulge herself away from the home. If you can understand her reasoning, she'll probably be more apt to understand your reasoning and then you'll be able to compromise on an agreeable weekday night situation.

I can't really say if it's sexist or not, but it really, really bugs the crap outta me that you seem to resent that she's doing something with her time that she enjoys, that's helpful to other people, that she finds rewarding... and you sound like a butt-hurt little boy who must be entertained constantly, 24/7. Why can't she go do something she enjoys and finds rewarding without having to find a husband-sitter to pay attention to him for a few hours in the evening?

The housework issue is a red herring. Hire a cleaning lady: problem solved. But also, news flash: It's not HER house that's HER job to keep clean. You both live there. It's YOUR house too. Why do you feel no sense of personal responsibility to take care of and clean your investment? Do you have no pride in your home? Why the hell not?

Just get a cleaner and then focus on the real problem: You can't stand it that there is something that exists that makes your wife happy and it isn't you. Sounds to me like you need a hobby. No one person can be everything to anyone. It's not fair to expect her to give up something rewarding just so you don't feel like a lost puppy twice a week for a few hours.

I'm getting a little grumpy about this, so I'll stop, but let me ask you one more question: What if your wife had said to you "Honey, I know we need the money to feed the kids and everything, but when you are gone all day at work, I feel lonely. I wish you'd quit your job and spend more time at home massaging my feet." Would that seem unfair to you? Why?

Why should she give up something that she does for herself? What are you going to give up that you do for yourself, if you're going to make selfish demands on her? Be fair! If she has to give up something she loves to coddle you and change your diapers, then you have to give up something you love to nurture HER needs a bit.

It's not sexist, I don't think, just selfish. As if she doesn't even have personal needs outside the home. Psh.

I'm very glad to hear your perspective.

I'm not quite as bad as your are reading into this but definitely some of what you say rings true.

There are a couple of things I want to clarify:
"Why do you feel no sense of personal responsibility to take care of and clean your investment?"

I do. I can see how some things I wrote could have given the other impression. I spend a lot of time both cleaning and caring for the kids. However, I have a lot higher tolerance than she does for clutter. Over time I have actually learned to clean a lot more and a lot sooner that I would naturally for her comfort. Despite working full time I do most of the dishes, all the bathrooms, among lots of other stuff. I actually am quite good in general at doing a lot of stuff simply because I know it is important to her - and I'm happy to do it for that reason alone.

We could hire a cleaning person - we've done it before. We actually value keeping our own house clean and don't especially like having someone as you said "change our diapers for us".

"You can't stand it that there is something that exists that makes your wife happy and it isn't you. "

Nope this isn't it. I think you are right that there is something there to focus on, but this isn't it. I actually am legitimately truly happy for her in both this regard and the many other outlets she has - she reads a lot, she quilts, she cycles, etc. I support all of them and am glad she does them.

We overall have struck a fairly reasonable balance of intimacy and self/privacy/own interests. We both have a number of interests that we pursue sometimes together and sometimes alone that we give each other space for.

Your selfish vs. sexist is an excellent thought - you are right that, that is where I need to be looking.

I believe communication is of utmost importance. A partnership is working together. If you're missing her the second night and she doesn't need to work that night, tell her. Let her know you'd rather that be your time together.

If there is one thing that most people are missing in this world, it is time. Feeling useful, having a goal, having a job, having money is all fine. But nothing replaces the time you miss together. Put together some fun family videos or something fun.

Once I grew up and appreciated my parents, our favorite times were having multi yahtzee games til wee hours of the morning and Sunday dinners, complete with yelling at the football games to karaoke and dancing in the evenings. Now I get to cherish those memories.

With my wife and I, we used to work our tails off. She worked because she is a go-doer. She's not the domestic kind of person either, which is fine by me. But I was working 6-7 days a week and I never felt lonelier. We didn't have any human kids at home, so we had more time to get out and go. But when life happened and we found ourselves at home more, it became such a blessing I didn't expect. We can get up most days and ask each other what we feel like doing; visiting friends or family, watching movies, dancing around the house to a blasting stereo, play with the cats, get on our favorite MMORPG game, or just veg and eat junk food.

I never realized how much time we had missed being crunched into religious obligations and work. Let her see how much you need her, not for the chores, but for her company, her laughter, her sharing your adventure of life.

Chores, they'll always be there and we all hate doing them no matter what gender/sex we are. Those are things we all just have to pitch in and do, whomever can get to them first and gets them out of the way. Which ever of us feels like cooking, we cook. Otherwise we get fast food or get instant/micro food.

Just enjoy life all together as much as you can. Don't let chores and petty stuff get in the way of what really counts; time, love, making great memories to cherish as we get older, fun.

It kind of depends on how your wife experiences all this, her history and beliefs play into if something is experienced as sexism or not. If you care enough to ask then you are doing more than 99% of dudes in the same situation, so that is cool. I think you both need to discuss this together more.

The more I read what you have to say, the more it sounds like there are additional problems going on. This sounds really mean but I can't help but wonder why she doesn't miss you more?

My guess: she's been home all day, doing really mundane crap, for years and years and years. Finally. Finally, she finds something that gives her a bit of mental stimulation, that's rewarding and helpful to others. She loves it. He resents it because her self-esteem and sense of satisfaction with a job well done is NOT being derived from him or from taking care of him. She doesn't miss him more because she's already learned how to cope with the home-alone loneliness -- years and years ago. She's excited because she finally gets to be a contributing, useful, productive member of society and is doing something that's enriching and rewarding. Who would miss the grumpy, bitter guy at home who resents putting one meal on the table and maybe running the vacuum for a minute?

My opinion: He's had his needs catered to forever and he's not used to the shoe being on the other foot.

We've BOTH been making comments that we miss each other and want to come together better. It is actually the reason that the whole 2 nights working discussion happened in the first place.

Yes there are plenty of challenges.

We are basically at the spot that she has said if you really want me to quit the 2nd night I will. I certainly personally would love for her to quit the 2nd night, but evaluating if I am willing to "pull the trigger" because I know it is very rewarding for her and I like that.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2012 02:27PM by bc.

bc Wrote:
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> We are basically at the spot that she has said if
> you really want me to quit the 2nd night I will.
> I certainly personally would love for her to quit
> the 2nd night, but evaluating if I am willing to
> "pull the trigger" because I know it is very
> rewarding for her and I like that.

Did you think about the fact that maybe she wants that time with you too, but want you to show it by saying, "I want you to quit that second night. Our time together is more important than money."

If you think you're being sexist, you are.

My advise would be to use some of the extra money to hire a cleaning service to come in once or twice a week to take that load off both of you. Learn to cook, cooking is fun, cooking with kids is fun, eating what you cooked is fun, even when you mess up.

It’s only sexist if you or your wife says “such-in-such chore should be yours because that’s a man’s chore or that’s a women’s chore.”

If the reason you have issues with her being gone in the evenings is because you’re doing some chore that you feel she should be doing because she’s the “female”… then its sexists.

Domestic harmony is all about expectations, communication, compromise and planning. If you just try to “wing-it” all the time then someone’s going to feel resentful and put upon.

Sit down with the wife and discuss what domestic chores need to be done daily, weekly, every other week or monthly. Divide the chores up and make a schedule (daily, weekly, ect) with assignments. Include the kids with age appropriate assignments. Place the assignment schedule in a prominent location and review daily.

Schedule time to sit down and review and plan new schedules. Alternate responsibilities and assignments so no one feels “stuck” with anyone activity.

If you have the luxury of affording outside help to come in…go for it.

Don’t forget to schedule “together time” for the two of you as well…..that includes going out and doing things as a couple as well as significant bedroom gymnastic times as well.

There's a book I read a decade or so ago called "The Secomd Shift". One of the things it talks about is that there is a tendency for women to work during the day (be it unpaid as a homemaker or at a profession), and then do more than their fair share of the evening work at home. In their research there was a discrepancy in the amount of work being done by men vs women and their perception of it. The men thought they were doing equal amounts or more, when they were really doing far less than what the women were doing.

Your complaint is about the evening time. Do you think she ever wishes during the afternoon or day (when you are at work)that you were at home helping or being social? Neither of you should have a monopoly on the time when the other is working. To resent that would be selfish. Not neccesarily sexist, but selfish. Can you ever take a long lunch break for a mid day date?

The negotiable time should be carefully considered. Maybe you could help with scouts sometimes or ride along in the car to drop off the kids, enjoying a date night while they are occupied. Maybe for family night, take the kids somewhere where you can have some time with them, but also time together as adults-watching the kids ice skate or play on a playground while you enjoy grown up conversation.

Sounds like it's time to set some priorities together (with mutual respect) and get creative. If you have only two nights each week, use them wisely. It's more time together than if she worked every night.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2012 02:41PM by moonbeam.

Your question implies that the issue is your feelings about being stuck with the housework. Or her doing something she loves. Or sexism. It is none of these things. What sticks in our craw, like this is needling you, is always deeply personal.

Sexism yes/no, housework, church obligations are all phony issue in that discussing it drains away some of the fear from the real issue, which is much more scarey to talk about straight on.

The balance of time shared is off for you. And if it is off for either one of you, it is a problem for the marriage. A problem for the marriage is both of your business. So your fundamental concern here is very important.

How much time do you need with your wife for you to feel like a team? In the non-Mormon world, people spend the majority of their time with their family. That's at least four out of seven evenings (assuming everyone is working or busy during the day).

Using that as a benchmark, there are other factors which play into the comfortable state of unity, such as the frequency and quality of your sex life. If it's hot, you might not need as much time to keep the close bond going.

Because it is so easy for a discussion like this to sound like criticism, you can approach the idea as just another adjustment you are making as life goes on. The discovery that the other person does not want or need as much time with us as we would like can be hurtful. It can feel like a rejection, when it may be something entirely different and not even related to us.

Your wife may love being a Weight Watcher leader because her church jobs involve so much subservience that having the respect of so many women is just the antidote she needs. If she left the church completely, her interest might evaporate. My point is, you can't take it personally as in, "She is avoiding being with me and I am stuck here with a broom."

I suggest you have a talk with her that is mild and non-threatening, framing it that you "seem" to be having some difficulty emotionally with the new schedule and would like her know about your struggle. It is important that you communicate to her that it doesn't matter to you why she likes her part time job. She doesn't need to justify it or prove anything to you. It isn't criticism of the job, but rather a discussion of your feelings. This could include/exclude sex, time with kids, time with church, time with extended family, time with pets/plants/hobbies. Every couple has to negotiate this and, yes, it can be threatening and also very rewarding.

I also must comment on dogzilla's post. In several relationships I found that I was the entertainment. When I picked up a book, there was my boyfriend looking at me. One time he asked, "So you are reading. What am I supposed to do?" This happened to me so many times I became really exasperated. Then I realized that men without hobbies and interests of their own were really attracted to me because I always have something going on and have never been bored a day in my life. They would just piggyback on whatever I was doing. My husband even said, "I married you because I could see you were a rising star." The subtext was "...and I was falling."

Before you ask your happy wife to make any adjustment whatsoever, ask yourself what you would be doing if you were single. Do you have hobbies, activities, creative outlets yourself? Your wife sounds like an interesting person. Are you also an interesting person (we here at RfM think you are for sure, but would a TBM?). Make a list of your separate interests and ask yourself if you would follow yourself around to partake of the richness....

Hope this gives you more ideas to consider in your thoughtful quest for a mutually satisfying solution. It's not simple when one is being sucked on by a multi-hydra corporation pseudo-church.


Anagrammy

I think you are being unreasonable. There are 7 nights in a week, she is working 2 of them and Monday night is family night. The only thing I can see is that the two nights are in a row, especially since Thursday is committed outside of the house too. However I do understand that you miss her and not seeing her 1:1 for 3 nights in a row is tough.

How late is she gone? I would assume that she is home by 8:30 or 9pm? Maybe, especially on Wednesdays make a point to have a special time together when she gets home just for the two of you? Have the kids in bed or see that they are otherwise engaged and prepare something nice for the two of you, even if it is just a glass of sparkling cider in pretty glasses. Sit on the couch together and talk about your days. Spend 30 minutes reconnecting and see if that helps. Or, if the kids are old enough to be left alone, go for a short walk around the block together, sit in the backyard, whatever helps the two of you to connect. I would recommend spending 15-30 min each evening just to connect and share - hard to do but very well worth it.

Thanks all for your thoughts, comments, and ideas. Even if I haven't responded to your post particularly, I've read it several times and considered it. You've given me a lot to think about and broadened my perspective on this. Thanks. And thanks in advance for any more comments that come in before the thread closes.

I think I'd simply tell your wife you miss her and you'd like to figure out with her how to spend more time together feeling close and being a team. Then go from there. The main issue is intimacy and not the schedule or the housework. Those can be worked out. The main issue is to figure out how to feel closer in ways that work for you both. Work that out and the other issues fall into line. Even just voicing your emotional need for her and her responding to that will make you feel better if nothing else changes.

Thanks.

Why am I so tied up personally in being together on weeknights as being such a bid deal to me? Any ideas?

As I'm thinking about this since first posting I'm realizing that it is really something about it being on the "week night". Probably something that I need to figure out what to let go of - if I could figure out what it is I'm trying to let go of. I think there is something about my sense of "family" that is feeling threatened...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2012 03:07PM by bc.

bc Wrote:
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I think there is something about my sense of
> "family" that is feeling threatened...

I think that is great to reflect on--maybe journal on for a few minutes for a while? Perhaps ask yourself about other times when you've experienced a similar sense? It is a legitimate feeling worth exploring. I don't know what you'll come up with, but you are so thoughtful, I am sure you will. I would just be careful about categorizing yourself as "sexist" or "selfish" or some other label because labels can get in the way of finding out what you want to know.

some of these social thing vary a large extent by generation to generation, 'modern' people/couples look differently at these things than 40's / 50's birthers.

Then comes along the church & screws EVERYTHING UP;


No Wonder we're confused.