OK, OK, I realize this one is for the real history wonks & geeks, but apparently BY didn't deliver any fire & brimstone speeches after he basically got screwed by the Union Pacific when he provided lots of workers for the Transcontinental Railroad. Because of the locust attack on crops many farmers were out of work and BY brokered (giving his sons plum jobs) with the UP (and Central Pacific) to provide workers on construction & grading projects. He convinced many that they should take low wages because higher pay would be "too worldly", but due to lots of corruption, etc., the UP didn't pay him, and his frequent requests for compensation were barely acknlowledged. Seems that he got beat down & gave up, and even suspended tithing because workers were so d*mn broke (although I can't help thinking that he made a few bucks on the deal before it went south).
Have I got history wrong, or did BY deliver sermons talking about the rotten gentiles who passed SLC by on the way to Promontory Point? It seems uncharacteristic of him not to get PO'd and bombastic.

You've probably got it right that BY managed to pocket some money somewhere along the line, but I won't pretend any expertise or special knowledge.

Steven Ambrose ("Nothing Like In in This World") wrote the only book on the subject I glanced at; I read a chapter that described Brother Brigham as "six feet tall," and I put it down. A lack of attention to these kinds of detail--and an apparent unwillingness to submit to elementary fact-checking--is a big turn-off to me. Reminds me of another "history" posting here that I thoroughly debunked after consulting with some authentic hisorians, but the author is as biased and instransigent as the worst FAIR apologist.

Ambrose's Wiki biography acknowledges charges of plagiarism have surfaced, and he apparently fabricated claims of meetings with Eisenhower who was the subject of the volume he built his reputation on.

So it looks like there's fertile ground for research, and I honestly wish you good times and happy trails... My only caveats are "Beware the salesman," and "Bunk sells; debunking doesn't."

Which is why I still have my day job... ;-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2012 02:43PM by SL Cabbie.

I've often wondered if he (Ambrose) was LDS. His writing hints at it. I've read two of his works and thought they were decently written.

What a Prophet of God (in his chosen 'new' country more so) would have done would be to prophesy about this new railroad and where it would be and how it would run, etc. Instead - crickets...

I don't think he was Mormon, but I would bet my bottom dollar he was some kind of devoted religious type.

It seems there are some local historians who agreed with my [very] preliminary analysis of historian Ambrose's "theatrical tendencies."

http://utahrails.net/articles/ambrose.php

Anal-inclined historians of the world, unite! BTW, I'm extremely doubtful Ambrose was LDS; Wiki's bio puts him in the Midwest with a PhD from Wisconsin...

"The Sins of Stephen E. Ambrose"

>A review of Ambrose's new book, Nothing Like it in The World, and the summary of errors, misstatements and made-up quotes it contains. Compiled by G. J. "Chris" Graves, Newcastle, Calif., Edson T. Strobridge, San Luis Obispo, Calif., and Charles N. Sweet, Ogden, Utah, under the auspices of The Committee For The Protection Of "What is Truth" In Railroad History, G. J. Graves, Chairman. Minor editing and reformatting by Don Strack, Centerville, Utah.

It looks like that howler about BY's height wasn't the only fib... A couple of samples...

>At first reading of this new book it appears that the editors had missed a few typographical errors, however, the further one gets into the book the more it became obvious that the errors are not merely typographical, but the result of the lack of good historical research, careless reporting and extremely poor editing. As a result this book--being presented as a great new work on the building of the Pacific railroad--reads more like a novel than an accurate historical review.

>To make things worse, most of the nation's book reviewers continue to praise Ambrose's efforts to the sky. One can only believe that these critics have little or no knowledge of the history of the time, know nothing about the building of the Pacific railroad and are intimidated by such a popular author.

Okay, those amount to ad hominems, but the following aren't...

[Mention is made that California, Nevada, and Utah were added to the Union in 1848)

>Ambrose may mean that the territory encompassed by today's California, Nevada and Utah became a part of the United States under the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo signed in 1848. If so he confuses the reader who may rightly consider the word "Union" to refer to the Union of American States.

And the Nevada Territory wasn't "split off" from Utah Territory until 1861 when a petition for Utah Statehood was rejected by Congress.

>"Except for Salt Lake City, there were no white settlements through which the lines were built. No white men lived in Nebraska west of Omaha, or in Wyoming, Utah or Nevada There was no market awaiting the coming of the train."

>The Central Pacific never ran through Salt Lake City; its eventual railroad connection was the Utah Central built in 1870. However, the Mormon settlements--with a population of over 60,000--did present the transcontinental railroad with both a major market to serve as well as a significant source of labor for its construction. Furthermore, a population of over 16,000 in Nevada also provided a market for the Central Pacific to serve. The Dutch Flat and Donner Lake Wagon Road--a toll road constructed by the Big Four--brought the railroad millions of dollars of revenue from freight hauled from California to the Comstock mining district of Nevada as well as to the mining districts of Idaho.

Some of these may appear to be nitpicking, but they are pretty damning in my book...

I believe Quinn also has some info about this.

Ive heard it mentioned that

-BY called men to labor as though it was a church calling

Quinn & Bagley know about this, I believe, including what % (& amount) of the work was compensated.

I believe BY accepted some UP stock in lieu of $.

After years of negotiations between Mormon John Sharp and BY's son John W. Young, the church got some rolling stock and other stuff. I'd have to look it up. I do remember that BY got a fancy RR car decorated in great luxury. There's a long fascinating story about the history of the car as well as a description of it in Arrington and some other sources.

Who took my copy of Great Basin Kingdom?

I don't have the talent to do the research, but if someone wanted to write a book about Brigham Young, and his ability to graft money off of every little opportunity, it would probably be a great read.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Qz1xVE-d_Q

brigham young met his match with the rail road barons
Brig threatened to disrupt railroad construction in Utah if he did not get his way. (strong arm tactics)
so the MORmONS were allowed to help build the railroad.
brigham basically had things set up to give himself a dollar for every dollar the work crews earned.

( thats called a sweetheart deal for Brigham)
when the work was done the rail road barons showed their appreciation for young's strong arm tactics by refusing to pay Brigham Young. years of tense negotiations followed. brigham was probably very tempted to damage the rail road in retribution, but it was such a high profile thing and the MORmONS had already been highly scrutinized/ nearly attacked any way so Brigham did not dare.

the rr held out until all of brigham's excessive profit was eliminated from the bill and then paid out in trade.

(very smart move on their part!)

brigham used the railroad trade pay out to bring LDS converts to zion utah, and goods to his business interests.

(back to the sweetheart deal for brigham)

Young could recoup his losses by soliciting funds from the saints for transporting the converts, ( to do the lord's work of building up the Lords zion utah kingDUMB you know!) and then siphoning off of the funding pool that was created. It was called the perpetual immigration fund.

the rr worker saints ending up getting screwed on the front and back end of the deal so their prophet could have some profit or ALL of the profit in this case. some how the church always end up getting the money! and then MORmONS get touchy when I refer to their top leader as "Profit"

aint MORmONISM great !

am I only Hoping that what Phantom & Lucky posted is/can be documented...

Another chapter in "As the Members Burn".