Little kids getting up in testimony meeting saying "I know this church is true". Adults saying, "the gospel's true". etc.

True? Like gravity is true? Like the sun comes up every day is true?

It's quite a leap to make a statement that the church is true because there are so many other things that have to be true for it to be so. Yet, members attend testimony meeting and keep telling each other it is, so, therefore it must be! Gag.

Or, "I have doubts about this religion, but I want to fit in, so I'll participate in this self-indoctrination exercise."

Or, "I have no idea what I'm saying, but I want Mommy and Daddy to love me."

Those are the reasons I did. It makes me so sick I bought into this.

I have often thought this is akin to saying "I know General Motors is true." It is a corporation. Are you saying the doctrine (which keeps changing) is true? Are you saying the organizational structure (which keeps changing) is true? How about the history (which is either unknown or keep changing)?

Exactly!

WTF is being referred to? Everything in TSCC morphs and shifts.

It has always reminded me of "I am spreading a message about spreading a message."

Whats the damn message? Spreading a message. There is no substance. The emperor has no clothes.

We're better than you.

Nanny, Nanny Boo Boo.

My way was to say "the gospel of Christ is true" and no-one ever understood that this is NOT the gospel of TSCC nor did I ever say the church was true. Faked them out. In gospel doctrine I openly refused to read aloud anything outside the Bible. I have met many longterm mormons who are constantly saying "the church is true". Indeed, that they feel they have to keep saying it gives me the feeling they don't believe it. I think they feel that if they keep saying it enough they will quiet their doubts! I challenged the entire stake high council as to whether ANY of them believe the BoA. They stayed quiet and NONE responded - and I continued speaking for another half an hour.

In sum, the statement REALLY MEANS that those saying it really doubt it.

...has its members go on (and on, and on...) about how "the [whatever]church is true"! They go by faith.

All religions think they're the one True religion. If they admitteded they were false, people would stop believing.

The LDS church is unique in that it requires its members to donate 10% on their income. It's a commandment from the Lord, nothing voluntary about it.

If the church is not taught that it's "true", members will begin to question, and the cash donations will fall off.

Make no mistake, while the message of Mormonism may be good - the family values it teaches, laws of chastity, all the after school activities and field trips, basket ball courts inside their churches, etc. - providing these services ain't cheap.

There is a price to pay in being God's one True church. Sorry folks, but the Celestial Kingdom ain't free.

Actually, many groups (and the vast majority of people) do not claim to be part of "the ONE TRUE CHURCH". Rather, they acknowledge that many faiths have something to offer and they accept people of differing beliefs. Perhaps one could not that my brother had a Jewish partner (survivor of Aushwitz) who grew up with the late Polish pope. He died a couple of weeks before the Pope and I remarked that he had gone ahead to prepare a place for the Pope!

FYI, tithing is optional, just like everything else. It is just showing respect and thanks to god for everything he has given us.

And paying for City Creek Mall, how many hungry people could have been fed with the money it took to build it?

But he can't camp long term.

Thanks ;-)

+1. He is funny

Here is a wonderful definition from wiki:
Based on this passage in the Book of Mormon, the term "Rameumptom" has come to have a metaphoric meaning in Mormon culture, signifying self aggrandizement or hubris.[3][4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rameumptom


So the next time you go to Fast and Testimony meeting and you watch people get up one by one and declare that they are thankful for the only true church, and declare the selfsame statements about the church, Joseph Smith, and Monson, try to picture yourself as Alma the Younger seeing this for the first time.

It is interesting to break that down.

When we bring up the inconvenient truth about past or current teachings that reek of racism, sexism, and homophobia. Then all of the sudden the inspired leaders of the "true" church were speaking as men.

The "true" church that says Joseph Smith translated Egyptian papyri into the Book of Abraham. Well, he was just inspired by them, but didn't translate in a conventional sense--even though the introduction and Joseph Smith's journal says translated in a context that can only be interpreted as literal translation.

It just seems like it needs to be true enough to justify making that statement. As the LDS church tries to become more vanilla, will "I know the church is true" even mean anything?

Religion is based on superstitious magic. When people say "I know the Church is true," they are saying that superstitious magic is more believable than science.

Mormon code for "YOU CAN'T TELL ME ANYTHING."

I remember hearing on several occasions "the best way to strengthen your testimony is to share it". So people get up saying what they hope to believe. Then enough people say it that it must be true.

Funny thing is that this type of tactic is used by MLM groups. Maybe that is why so many mormons go for MLM schemes, it is just like going to fast and testimony meeting so it must be true.

"I believe TSCC is true."

"I believe TSCC is true."

"I believe TSCC is true."

"I believe TSCC is true."

"I believe TSCC is true."

"I believe TSCC is true."

"I believe TSCC is true."

"I believe TSCC is true."


Do you think if I repeat this statement over and over and over again, that someday I might actually BELIEVE it?

You might, but what really happens is that if you say it out loud in front of the ward or other persons it makes you accountable for that statement. Should you backslide, others will call you on it. If you see someone on the street that heard you say it you have to put on the happy member face.

Basically, once you've announced in public that you know the church is true, you must act the part or your personal character will be called into question. And when the time comes to see the light, members will say "But you said you knew it was true".

I remember making a comment in a Gospel Doctrine class, several years ago, something to the effect that "we believe this or that" we don't really "know this is true or that" as regards gospel things. I went on to say we "live by faith" which means our knowledge is not complete. Only prophets who've SEEN "know". Anyway, that was when I believed. The teacher looked at me with a blank look, didn't comment, and moved on.

It seemed obvious to me that my point was valid. I always believed that people were misusing the word "know" but I'd substitute "think" or "believe" or "have faith in" into whatever they allegedly "knew" in my mind when they spoke.

But after a few discussions with TBMs, I found out they didn't agree with me. They "believed" they "knew" even though I tried to politely point out that in fact they did NOT know but only BELIEVED.

Looking back on it, that little comment in Gospel Doctrine always stuck with me and probably was the little crack in the dam that started me in the direction that I continue in to this day.

Like Carl Sagan once said, and I paraphrase:

Religion is what happens when people get together in order to reassure each other that it is OK to continue believing in absurdities.

IOW,

"I know the church is true." = "It is OK to continue believing in this even though on the surface it sounds ridiculous."

Mormons are not believers. They are belongers.

That is what they mean when they say the church is true. It is all about validating themselves as part of the group.

"I do believe in spooks! I do believe in spooks! I do, I do, I do, I do believe in spooks!"

It means that if you dare to express and dissenting opinion and refuse to recant you will be chastised, then shunned and then excommunicated. Much easier just to resign.

Ron Burr

Mormons are Belongers, not Believers.

JS said to teach correct principles and let people govern themselves.

R I G H T.

Here is the official stance of the LDS Church about other churches taken directly from text from the "First Vision":

"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt."

This is God speaking in person directly to Joseph Smith. According to the Mormons, God, almighty, declares all other churches are an "abomination."

Definition of "abomination": something that is hated. something disgusting. Synonyms of "abomination": aversion, curse, detestation, evil, plague.

There is really no way for Momons to get around this. God, Himself, declared other churches to be evil and digusting. The only church that has God's approval is the Mormon church. That is the only "true" church.

I know that the LDS Church is trying to become mainstream and be more accepted in the Christian community, but until they "change" what they claim God said about other churches, I don't see how this can be possible.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2012 07:20PM by Moroni Marten.

The LDS church is the only true church because the church's teachings and beliefs that god has given us have mot been changed or removed because someone did not like it. The other churches, however have made changes to the bible because the head of the church did not like something. Sure, we use the king james version of the bible, but if you look at the footnotes, there are interpretations and additions made by Joseph Smith that restore the bible to how it was originally written.

Keep posting, you're funny.

So yeah, about Joseph Smith correcting the bible... why is it that "the church" doesn't use the Joseph Smith translation of the bible? And don't try to tell me that he never finished it, because I know better.

Also, have you ever wondered why The Book of Mormon is written in King James English (16th century), which just happens to match the KJV? I can't imagine that Nephi and Moroni spoke King James English, in addition to "Reformed Egyptian" (whatever that is). And Joseph Smith didn't, since he lived in the 19th century, not the 16th. So is it God who speaks King James English? Is that the long sought after Adamic language, perhaps? Hmm. Or maybe... Joseph Smith (or whoever wrote the Book of Mormon) wrote it in King James English so that it would sound more biblical/scriptural? Naw... that couldn't be it. Must be that God wanted it in less understandable English for some reason. I dunno, I'll let you mull it over and get back to me.

So back to why "the church" hides the fact that Joseph Smith finished his "translation" of the bible. Could it be because a different Mormon group holds the copyright? A Mormon group which Joseph Smith's whole family stayed with while Brigham dragged his apostate group off to Utah? No, that couldn't be it. Hmm. Well, maybe it's because if the members knew that the JST actually existed, they would wonder why they're still using the KJV instead. And maybe they would even wonder why God allowed the copyright of Joseph Smith's super important version of the bible to go to a group other than the Brighamites? Why wouldn't he want his one true church to have a more correct version of the bible? Why would he want an apostate group to have it instead? I guess we'll just never understand his mysterious ways. But it does seem strange when you have Bruce McConkie saying this about the JST: "The Joseph Smith Translation, or Inspired Version, is a thousand times over the best Bible now existing on earth" and then "the church" doesn't even use it, while a different "God's one true church" DOES use it, right alongside the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants. Seems confusing, but I'm sure that tricky God guy has a really good reason for it.

But honestly, it's just silly for you to advocate the "interpretations and additions" made by Joseph Smith, when your group doesn't even use Joseph Smith's version of the bible that those "interpretations and additions" come from. If his version were in any way more correct, and if the KJV is somehow flawed, you'd think that a switch would be in order. And if it's not more correct, you'd think they'd stop including it in the footnotes.

P.S. Why don't they teach Reformed Egyptian at BYU? I've always wondered that. Maybe they don't consider it a real language... oh, wait.

Now why didn't I think of that. It is true, because they don't change anything, and the proof is that Joseph Smith changed everything! That's fucking brilliant!

Hey, wait... did you just say that the LDS church is the one true church because your leader made changes to the bible, instead of making changes to the bible like other church leaders?

That's the thing...they change everything all the time. Go find an original copy of the BoM and compare it to the current one. Other ex mo's correct me if I'm wrong...it's had nearly 4,000 changes made from the original. Oh, here's a link:
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/3913intro.htm

It only means that it's a "true church"! If it was a garage and said it was a church, that would be false! :-)

Here's what it sounds like it means to me, a pretty typical (I think!) nevermo:

"I double dog swear I'm not lyin', fer realz." Like a little kid trying to convince another kid of something that they know sounds made up.

Or perhaps like a little kid saying the dog really did eat that homework. The real meaning there is a little more like: "Please just believe me, so I'm not in trouble!"


Do you guys think that TBMs know that's what a nevermo hears when they say that?

+1

adding: to me, also a nevermo, it sounds like a kid with his/her hands over their ears yelling, "LALALALALALALA!!"

If you tell yourself the sky is green long enough and repeat it over and over and have other people tell you repeatedly, you start to think it's twoo. Just ask the folks in the novel 1984.

"This is God speaking in person directly to Joseph Smith." but Maroni Martin - God was speaking as a man when he said this not as a god. Remember if it is offensive to the outside world, then it was just someone's opinion not God talking.

"Make no mistake, while the message of Mormonism may be good - the family values it teaches" - WTF? What values are these? Since when is HATE a family value?

What is translates into is "STFU, Amen".