I mean, he was raised and brainwashed in the church so do you think he just thinks he is the prophet or does it get to a point where he realizes that he actually isn't talking to god? What about the apostles? Do you think they actually believe him? I guess what I'm asking is are they just deluded or are they just all in on it?

I'm in the most/all them believe camp.

The main reason I think this is seeing the TBMs in my family around me that have had "higher up" callings and believe it all the way.

For example, my Dad was stake president, bishop, and all kinds of other stuff. He has been exposed to plenty of "anti-Mormon" stuff but he still believes it 100%. I think these people give so much of their lives to the church that they are incapable of even considering anything else.

This is actually something that I have wasted a lot of time wondering about.

My theory is that the ones at the top know it's baloney and most of the lower leadership don't have a clue. The problem is figuring out what level(s) of leadership the transition is made.

In an interview with Mike Wallace, President Gordon B. Hinckley was asked if he was a prophet. Instead of answering in the affirmative, he waffled on the issue and said, “I am sustained as such.”

In other words, he indicated that other people thought he was, but he never admitted to being a prophet himself. I think he knew very well that he had never received a revelation and probably realized no one else in the church had either. But it made no difference to him.

Most Mormon prophets probably do. Rather or not the current one actually believes, only he knows for sure.

I think some "know" it is based on lies and some "believe" it is true. But when your whole life and your family's lives are built and dedicated to the church, it is extremely difficult to just stop and say, "no I don't believe this anymore, it's all a sham." I mean it is so difficult for some rank and file members that many of them just stay in and keep quiet. For someone at the top I'm sure it's even more difficult.

Hinckley was asked by Larry King: "Are you a prophet" and his answer was "I am sustained as such", he looked pretty uncomfortable with the topic. He looked uncomfortable and even upset talking about polygamy and racism to.

Monson is not even visible these days. Even for temple dedications he is not as visible as Hinckley was.

Of all the prophets I think Thomas S. Monson is one of the most inneffective people fitted for his position ..He rarely addresses General Conference with anything substanital. He does not seem to be able to make decisions.. He does not teach any doctrine and he certainly does not announce any new programmes --HOWEVER when he talks he certainly makes people all warm and fuzzy ..

JB

I don't think they treat the word "prophet" the same way that much of the world does. They think they actually hold the keys of that office, where they could certainly receive inspiration for the Church, if need be.

But mostly they see the office of the prophet as being a witness for Christ. I guess they're kind of like the Chief Testimony-Bearer of the Church. They seem to see themselves more like a counselor.

+1

I think they probably do, but I don't think they see themselves the same way that the lower level members see them as. Members think they see Jesus in the temple and receive powerful visions and can hear the voice of God. I think the higher up these guys get the more they realize this stuff is not how it really is. HOWEVER because of their inability to accept the fact that Mormonism is not true, they rationalize it by believing that they are more like "inspired custodians" of the organization that Smith already established. I don't think they think that "thus sayeth the Lord" type revelations are needed anymore since the foundation has already been laid.

I think he truly believes that he was "chosen." Whether or not he's had any actual supernatural or spiritual experiences? Who knows. If so, he's been keeping it to himself or lying. The fact that he feels like he's been "chosen" allows him to keep silent.

I like to think of it in a more tragic way:

No matter how strongly any religion person denies it, they all doubt at some point. Doubting takes no effort. Faith takes effort. In a moment of clarity there is no denying that the "evidence" for any god or religion is convoluted at best. Looking around at their physical reality at any moment, there is no direct evidence of their beliefs.

None of the "Prophets" have been stupid men. Certainly the last few are college educated. They were indoctrinated young and there were always lots of older people to validate their beliefs. The older they got and the higher they got in the church the narrower their peer group got, but there was always some older, higher ranked Mormon to affirm.

Eventually they become an Apostle and, even though they know they haven't seen any proof of their God, the club is small and I'm sure they never voice their doubt to eachother. Afterall, they have a comfortable and important position when most men are being forced to retire.

At the same time all along the've been validating these beliefs to the younger, lower ranked officials; continuing the cycle.

They probably secretly hope all along that some revelation will be given to them. Some actual affrimation from the divine.

Then one day, after having gone through the motions for 80 or so years, they are made Prophet, Seer, and Revelator for the One True Church. I'm sure its overwhelming and busy at first, like it is for anyone taking the reigns of a vast business empire, but eventually they get some peace and quiet; a moment to themselves.

All along they've been told that God speaks directly and face to face with the Prophet. That he has spoken to Prophets both ancient and modern.

So they enter the Holy of Holys in the Salt Lake City Temple and, I don't know if they do it outloud or only in their minds, they try to address God, and receive no response. Perhaps they become more earnest, but still nothing.

After 80-something years of believing that, while they don't have the direct evidence, that someone, somewhere does. That some old man whose every word they obey does have contact with the divine. That each level they went up they still received nothing, but were always sure the next level would be the one where they finally receive that vision or revelation.

But now, he's at the top, all alone, with no one, God or Man, to reassure or validate him. 80-or-so wasted years, and still a few more to go. He can't turn back now. There is still one more level to go. Maybe in death it will finally come.

No matter what injustices these men may be a party to, it's still a supremely cruel punishment.

ItsLonelyAtTheTop Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> All along they've been told that God speaks
> directly and face to face with the Prophet. That
> he has spoken to Prophets both ancient and
> modern.

I disagree. The "they speak directly and face to face with
God" idea is held by the lower membership. The higher you get
the more you know that "revelation" is what you feel good
about in your mind after pondering and prayer.

In their meetings they pray and dress up in the outfits and
"offer up the signs" and discuss their "impressions" on
various issues. When they reach a consensus, maybe at the
coaxing of the president they call that "revelation."

They've all read the scriptures over and over and know the
part where it says:

"And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy
Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall
be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall
be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation."
-D&C 68:4

If they meet and pray and offer up the "signs" and ponder and
pray some more and ponder some more then anything that they
feel really good about is accepted unquestioningly as
"revelation." They were trained to think and perform this way
since they were EQPs and missionaries. If the general
membership thinks they see Jesus and God face to face well,
let's let them since it engenders faith and obedience.

It's telling that Spencer W. Kimball had been "pondering" the
change in policy on Blacks and the priesthood for over a month
before he assembled the First Presidency and Twelve, all of
whom he had felt out ahead of time to ask if they'd feel OK
with it and only THEN did he finally get a "revelation" which
had no "thus saith the Lord" words to it--nothing but the
assurance that the time had come etc.

It was NOT that Spencer W. Kimball assembled them and told
then he'd received a revelation--no it was a long, involved,
collaborative process. And it was one that they'd experienced
over and over at lower levels of operation in the Church.
Therefore when it continues at the higher levels there is no
reason for them to question it. No reason for them to think
they are NOT getting "revelation." No reason for them to
doubt.

I think they are all True Believers.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2012 12:25AM by baura.

Each prophet knows, of course, that he has not spoken to or seen Jesus. He is a "special witness" because he has been ordained as such. Just like a 19 year old is an "Elder" because he has been ordained as such.

You are what the ordinances say you are.

The fact that they have NOT seen Jesus would be seen by them as a test of their humility, or their fault due to their sinful thoughts--point being they would think that privilege was denied them by God's decision, not because the whole think is a charade.

Baura's post is spot on and worth printing and saving.

Anagrammy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2012 12:29AM by anagrammy.

My experience is the higher-ups do believe revelation has been given to them.

For example a guy who is in our current stake presidency is also a friend. He strongly, strongly, strongly believes that he has seen many miracles in his leadership callings. He believes that he has many times been told by the spirit exactly what he is supposed to say to people he is interviewing.

These people imagine miracles and revelations all the time - confirmation bias.

They don't even realize that what they are doing in this interviews is actually destroying people's psyche - they honestly believe they are helping when they are actually harming.

At one time I thought I was going to be a queen for eternity.
I guess he's allowed to think he's 'the' prophet.

We are all in for a huge let down i'm afraid.

They know the scam. The so-called prophets have all known that they do not prophecy.

It's a hard question, but clearly somebody knows it's all a scam. I think today more of them know, and I think the big 15 all know, but they are either paid too well or enjoy too many perks and status or likely both to derail the gravy train. I don't know what a "modest stipend" means but Gordo said it was less than a CEO of a major corporation. So...somewhere between $1 and $65,000,000?

I think there was a period when more of them truly did believe at the top. When the Book of Abraham Papyrus was found the church sent them to egyptologists to get them translated, presumably so they could show the world how right they are. Of course it turned out they were pretty wrong and they've been sweeping it under the carpet ever since (and even from before I think). If they knew it was BS I think the leadership of the church would have created a very large brick from their nether regions.

any body who could read the OT accounts of prophets and see what they did, be aware of the claims of Joe SMith speaking and communing with god (supposedly), hold the office of prophet for the LDS corporation knowing full well that God had NEVER spoke to them, they would certainly qualify as a REAL MORmON but not so much as a real prophet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWknakABlfc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wALvB4dgur

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UncZBWcIPL8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yCm4zFVIe0



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2012 04:35AM by lucky.

I think at the moment the Prophet thinks he's a fire engine...

Cut...I decided to start a thread on this because my post was so long.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2012 09:22AM by Jesus Smith.