Okay, I'll start the new thread. Link to old:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,632053,632053#msg-632053

And to bc, because you gave me the other thing, okay, I'll give you that it's not a simple "it's obvious" for a lot of people.

It is pretty obvious, though. :)

And it's not like I didn't try to be a believer. I did try, because my parents made out like they were super smart and always right about everything. That's one idea they did a pretty good job of almost pounding into my head.

Do I get points for trying?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2012 08:09PM by munchybotaz.

You get points for figuring it out sooner if anything.

Honestly, I think you and I both did a really bad job of making the point we were trying to make.

The point I think you were trying to make is that there has always been plenty of evidence to figure out the LDS church isn't true. I 100% agree with you on that point.

The point I was trying to make is that there are a whole lot of other factors than just evidence that makes someone believe. Also believe it or not there are actually a lot of halfway good answers to a lot of the issues/questions if you are looking at things from an "eye of faith".

I apologize for being a bit aggressive in my response to you and appreciate you keeping it a good discussion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2012 08:13PM by bc.

I knew I was gonna get a rise out of somebody. That wasn't my goal, but I thought about it before I hit "post" and wasn't surprised or offended by what you said. It is difficult for me to imagine what it's like to be a TBM. The idea pounders succeeded in making me believe things I now know are perfectly normal were bad, and in making me feel guilty for doing some of those things. So I know what that's like, and I understand TBM thinking about Satan. That's probably as close as I'll ever get.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2012 12:34AM by munchybotaz.

There are quite a few people here who seem uncomfortable with others criticizing their own parents. Gak! Negative feelings! Must be stamped out immediately. *stamp, stamp, stamp*

That's what my mom does, so it pushes my buttons.

Many here blame a nebulous idea of "the church" for what parents do and this has a measure of validity. However, many mormon parents love the church more than their children. They are more worried about what ward members think of their family than they are concerned about their real needs.

It's never good or decent marginalize a child and sacrifice a child's needs and wellbeing in order to build mormonism or a brighter fake reputation in the mormon community.

Children are not required to love a parent who withheld love from them in favor of a church.

Fortunately, every adult child has the option to say no to parents who undercut their continuing development or who try to control them into adulthood.

Parents don't have a right to expect unwavering unearned loyalty forever if they continually dish out ultimatums and harsh judgements.

Neither do adult kids have a right to dredge up childhood complaints forever. They can say no to demands or they can cut off contact when or if the relationship is unviable or toxic. They're never required to give faked respect or unearned appreciation and love to a hostile or toxic parent. Some parents are not worth spit and I'm sad for adult posters who continually hope for parental validation from totally toxic or inept parents.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2012 06:10AM by Cheryl.

in any way we choose, including calling them stupid. It doesn't mean we don't recognize their good intentions or we think they were entirely bad parents or we don't like them as people. If someone comes along and says their parents sucked swamp water, I'm not going to argue unless the parents in question are also mine and I don't agree that they sucked swamp water.

Such is the risk of deciding to use one's ability to reproduce. Your kids might not enjoy or appreciate everything you did, and they might criticize you for it.

As I tell my own son when he throws the crap I did to him back at me (that I've already apologized for, because I didn't get the infallible gene), we all get what we get in the way of role models, and you'll just have to figure it out and deal like I did.

It's not my right to criticize someone else's way of figuring it out and dealing.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2012 11:18AM by munchybotaz.

You make some excellent points and I agree in general with what you are saying.

However, I also think that someone who is really angry and wallowing in bitterness for a long period of time that their parents didn't figure it out is just hurting themselves.

I personally am a little frustrated and disappointed in my parents for not figuring it out. However I don't take that to the point of being angry at them for not figuring it out.

So I think attempting to steer someone away from holding onto bitterness and anger over something their parents did "in good faith" is a good thing.

The reason for my strong reaction to your initial post is I interpreted what you were saying as - yeah you should be pissed at your parents - they should have figured it out! The Mormon parallel is that they judge everyone for not being smart enough to see their truth.

So I think the message "don't wallow in bitterness at your parents because they didn't figure it out" is a good one. However, getting that message across in a non-condescending, non-judgmental way is a challenge. It certainly doesn't help to criticize someone for how they feel about it.

Do you mean the one you first replied to, or the long one where I talked about my own parents? That's where I empathized with the OP. And by the way, my intention was to share some learning that helped me with the anger.

I thought the post you replied to was a separate idea, in response to the popular and I think defensive notion that it takes a lot of study to know that Mormonism is false. I'm not sure how you got "yeah, you should be pissed" out of what I said there.

I'm referring to the one where I made an ass of myself. And yeah, I read it wrong.

Good grief! If it works for someone to forgive or forget something, that's something to celebrate, not cram down another's throat when you have very little sense of what they've been through or are now facing. It's presumptive and arrogant to tell someone when or if they must "move on."

Anyone who posts is likely getting gratification from what they have to say. Writing it helps. Telling them to stop expressing how they feel on RfM defeats its purpose.

Yup.

Thank-you for saying it. I know "with every fiber of my being" that my own father loves TSCC more than me. No doubt about it.

EXMO or MO, the majority of you still have that mentality that you're special, that you've somehow come across special knowledge that the rest of the masses don't know. And now you're free. Now you think you're better than all the ones who don't "know."
EXMO or MO, you still have the same bigotry attitude. Not all of you. But enough of you that this exmo.org sounds like mo.org

The wise but self-doubting and sinful stranger who reads minds in his spare time, when he's not breaking 9 of 10 commandments?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2012 03:00AM by munchybotaz.

LoL. Touché

but rather a combination of lucky (to have seen a clue) and brave (to have followed up with research and further inquiry, knowing full well that it could result in a loss of testimony).

It does not seem kind to condemn those who happened to have never seen a demonstration of such cruelty that they were forced to question the entire paradigm...

Nor does it seem fair to call those stupid who, after thinking it over, decide they might be better people to keep their newfound disbelief a secret in the interest of giving their children an unbroken home.

I can understand that people who make different calls than I did have very good reasons for it and the idea that I have the right to judge the decisions of others as if I knew all the factors is , on its face, arrogant at best.

One thing for sure is in my Book of Kathy: I want to discard every unloving and judgmental mental habit that Mormonism taught me was appropriate for us Gods and Goddesses (remember who you are !) to use when dealing with the less-than "Gentiles."

You may need to reject TBM friends and family as part of your own unique recovery. I completely accept that because all things change and exmormons must have the chance to express their feelings as they reject the old and bring in a new paradigm.

Namaste

Anagrammy

As are others with the insight to see through a scam and stretch themselves to find necessary initiative and courage for leaving any cult.

Wearing cult blinders might be understandable but I do not in any way consider blinders as special or commendable as the struggle for self determination and intellectual freedom.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2012 06:13AM by Cheryl.

Honest in the best way that this lying, thieving, mind-crushing cult ever pretended to teach my parents to teach me.

And I think you might wanna go back and look at what you said to the OP in the other thread, because I thought it sounded more judgy-goddessy and less accepting of her need to express her feelings.

But, maybe I should talk, having been told twice that I sound all TBMalicious. :)

Thanks Munchyboataz I did feel judged and misunderstood by anagrammy in my last thread. The behavior reminded me of a certian cult I used to be associated with :)

Sorry 'bout that - no offense intended. Sometimes I get carried away :)

We're all in recovery here so, yeah, it can be rough and tumble.

Take what you feel helps you and just throw the rest away.

Best

Ana

I think that many tbm parents lack respect for their apostate children and their newfound beliefs. They continue to shove Mormonism into our faces and desperately try and reconvert us. It is not fair for exmormons to bend over backwards in acommodating parents beliefs when they are not doing the same for us. Why would I want to respect my parents in a faith that I feel is a harmful and distrustful organization? It is perfectly okay to stand up against something you disagree with. Sometimes I wonder if a few people on RFM are still under the spell of Mormonism. It is important to stop catering to tbm family members and the church. Yes Cheryl you certainly are brave and special. All of us are for being able to reverse the brainwashing and come out in one piece.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2012 04:57AM by turnonthelights.

Munchybotaz wrote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>And it's not like I didn't try to be a believer. I did try, because my parents made out
>like they were super smart and always right about everything. That's one idea they
>did a pretty good job of almost pounding into my head.

I had to go catch up to that thread. I agree with you, munchybotaz, and there was some interesting interpretation going on.

Also, I was born into the church. I was in a huge family of mormons. I had almost no social interaction with anyone but mormons. It was made very clear to me that the outside world was evil and wrong. Only mormons had the truth. Even if you didn't understand it, that was your weakness. I was indoctrinated on a daily basis for the first 17 years of my life.
And it disgusted me and outraged my internal moral compass the entire time. I feel many believing mormons LIKE the kind of sickness TSCC propagates.
I question their nature that it feels good to them to gossip, to climb that vicious social ladder and pass condemnation for petty "sins". To raise oneself up over choice of earrings, to cut family out of weddings, to threaten eternal separation without blind obedience, to swear off unconditional love and put that hideous organization first.
These things ARE obvious, and it is not "passing judgment" to be wisely wary and protective of one's heart when knowing these things about mormon relatives.

Doing the best they know how? Scorning the hurt they inflict on their children, ignoring their expressed anguish out of loyalty to a church? They didn't know better until this pain was brought to their attention the first time. But then they do know better, and yet they continue to push the agenda, KNOWING the pain they cause and preferring it that way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2012 06:17AM by WinksWinks.

They do know they're hurting non-believers and they often take pleasure in doing so because they immagine they're doing it for the Lord, earning points in heaven, and teaching non-believers hard lessons. I think in their rationalization, they likely define their cruelty as good and powerful "tough love."

As my family shuns me in their hypnotic state of arrogant self righteousness, they simultaneously claim to be humble.

As they obsessively attend to every detail of their religious 'things to do list' they abandon everything and everyone around them that would bring joy into their life. They are then confused when they find themselves tightly bound in the chains of depression.

They turn their noses up in my direction as they are repulsed by my refusal to join in the religion that is obviously sucking their very souls out of them. They pretend to not understand why I would be hurt by their judgement and rejection.

As they read their scriptures and attend their endless meetings in a show of 'setting a good example for me' they gossip about me and resent me for putting them in that position when they would rather relax a bit. They spend any extra moments trying to divide the family and turn them and past friends against me.

As they go to the temple and religiously write my name on the prayer rolls, they are jealous of any success or joy I may have in my life. If I'm going through difficult times, they are secretly glad, and congratulate God for doing his part to help me' see the light'.

As they take the sacrament every Sunday and pray for forgiveness of their sins, they feel superior to me because they are there, and I am not. They are certain they will be forgiven of sins and I will not be. They take some pride in that. As they fast during that day, they feed their self righteousness, sure in their attempts that they have done everything they can to rescue me.

Someone may wonder how I presume to know what they are thinking. It's because i've known them all my life. I lived under their roof for 17 long years. I've heard them talk about these exact things concerning other family members. I know their judgments, I know their thinking, and attitudes. I also know their depression, resentments, anger, and self righteousness. I know them well as I watch them trudge around and around in the cesspool known as Mormonism.

Beautiful description of an ugly reality.

It's often a cinch since they're still saying the exact same things they said since we were born and living in the same house with them, listening to their prayers, eating the same food with them, and sharing daily conversations, arguments, and jokes. We've watched their facial expressions and heard the tones in their voices. They have gotten older but not wiser.

WE have changed and they no longer know us but they've stayed the same. We often know what they're thinking and why they do and say whatever we observe because we've lived it and experienced it forever. They've never experienced "the world," our lives, or how we've changed.

Very well expressed. The image in my mind is of the kiddie put-put cars at the carnival that go round and round in a circle, same speed, safe and familiar.

My entire life I watched my parents go to any extreme to avoid any facts. It was like a game of dodgeball where the only thing that mattered was being the last one standing without being touched by that giant ball of truth.

They could dive, tuck and roll with the best of them.

I cannot understand how that could be. How could knowledge be such a threat? I know it's a cult, I know there is brainwashing. I know we lived in a 100% mormon community, but...


WHAT THE HELL WAS WRONG WITH THEM??????? Why couldn't they just for one minute use their own brain?

How could they label me as deceived by Satan. HOW THE HELL COULD THEY DO THAT TO ME?

Dodge ball is a perfect image for this.

I wish I knew the answer. How I wish I knew.

How do grown adults abandon their children over a church teaching? How do they get to a place where some old men have more meaning to them than the little babies they gave birth to? As a mother I have no idea how that happens. I don't know.

It does give a snapshot of how much power the church has over some peoples minds. That's the best I can come up with.

The men that have been in power are tenacious, greedy, insidious old bastards.