I've always been a TBM
Then I did a few sins off the 10 commandments.
Then after some time, I thought it all out, and it makes more sense to that everything is fake.
Can I trust myself? I know many of you say you were TBM, in good standing, no sin, so the HG wouldn't have left you if you had it, so you can trust yourself. Whereas what if someone had committed a few sins, maybe a few major ones. Can he/she trust him/herself in this state?

define 'sin'. 'sin' is nothing more than a word to describe what THEY consider wrong. it's them, whoever is in charge, that give us their version of reality in order to keep the sheeple in line.

- was polyandry right or wrong? seducing married women in the name of god?

- why wasn't polygamy for everybody although it was a commandment required to achieve celestial glory? why just the elite?

- is the book of abraham right or wrong in terms of translation? is it sinful to point that out?

i'm not here to tell you __what__ to think. for that you have mormonism. it's time to wake up and take control of your own life once and for all. you define how to live your life from now on. you define what's "sin" and what's not.

Sin as defined by the 10 commandements. Over the past 3 years, probably broken most of them, except the murdering one.

Has God come down and chatted with you?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2012 02:29AM by MJ.

On top of stealing and bearing false witness?! Damn, dude. You should probably just go ahead and kill something. You're toast.

Oh yeah, I will also ask you to do all sorts of things, we'll call them "callings". You will also be asked to go on a mission and recruit others into paying me 10% of their income to me. And I will even guarantee that if you know the right handshake you can get whatever you want in an after life after you die.

Are you going to trust me and start sending me money, or yourself and not?

is evidence that your brain has been tampered with.

You have a (god-given?) brain which included a conscience. Then greedy men came along and convinced you to not use your equipment as a moral compass, but instead to rely on them to tell you right from wrong.

Yet something keeps buzzing in your head that it feels wrong ...

Everybody makes mistakes. That's where the 10 Commandments came from, a list of people's mistakes. Doesn't mean you are ineligible for the benefits of communication from a special ghost that they made up.

Trust me, my friend, I am not asking for any of your money or your time. The truth is that the "Holy Ghost" voice is your own inner wisdom, your own conscience and values trying to get through the program that has you intuitively flatlining.

You are designed to run on your OWN MORAL RUDDER. You are now at the beginning of the exciting road of discovering who you REALLY are now that you have ripped off the headset....or have you?

There are people here who never broke a rule, who simply realized that the canonized scripture from Mormonism that says THERE WAS NO DEATH before Adam (6,000 years ago) can. not. be. true. The only sin these folks committed was to fire up their own mind and realize that is complete nonsense.

Read paternoster's blog about the dinosaurs for all the references. And then read our own anointedone's story told in an interview with John Dehlin. That exmormon was a stake president, his son is a stake president, and he was so high up in the church he received a super secret ceremony guaranteeing him salvation. Anointed one practically had a halo around his head and he got the same shitty treatment the rest of us get, even though he was eligible to see Christ....he had the Second Anointing.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/tempstash/TomPhillips-Unedited.mp3

So don't think you are low down because you have sinned. Your main problem is the thinking, not the sinning. So if you want to improve your relationship with the Mormons, just turn off your brain, otherwise, there's no unringing that bell.

Anagrammy

i'd like to bear my testimony, that i know this post is true.

Sounds like you definitely "sinned" more than I did. Was it fun?

My biggest "sin" so far is leaving the church and that was a well-thought-through decision. I was also quite clear-headed when I took it and I feel 100% able to trust my judgment.

Yes, you can trust yourself. I was where you are now, over 20 years ago. At a crossroads. I had sex outside of marriage. Then I had a decision to make. Do I repent and put my life force into the church, or do I walk away and risk losing everything? I didn't take this lightly. I had a daughter and had just divorced her alcoholic father. I thought if I got married in the temple this time everything would be okay. But then I realized that I had no desire to even date Mormon men, let alone marry one. And the more I learned about the church the more I knew I made the right decision to leave. The things they say about losing the spirit when you "sin" are just control tactics used by all cults. You are on the right track posting here. Keep studying and learning and stop being so hard on yourself.

it just isn't true. I left some 17 to 20 years ago out of self preservation--still believing. It took time--a vacation away from the LDS church for it to fall apart.

Now I'm a 'sinner'--according to many. I feel better about myself than I ever did as a mormon. Basically, in mormonism all you have to do is quit going to church and you are already a sinner. So just not going to church dragged me down into depravity and sin?

As my exmo therapist says, "We both tested mormonism to its very limits and it failed us."

"Sin" doesn't exist.

The question is if you are doing things that are harmful/hurtful to others and yourself? If you are then you should stop. Morals and ethics still exist. I do believe a number of people take the binders of religion off and start doing self-destructive and other-destructive things.

However, I also think people take the binders of religion off and still feel guilt doing things that aren't destructive that they shouldn't feel bad about.

The blind obedience of being Mormon doesn't make you a moral person either. Mormons do hurtful, harmful, immoral things all the time in the name of religion and obedience.

There certainly is nothing to not being able to trust yourself because you have lost the Holy Ghost. It never existed in the first place. There could be something to you have developed destructive habits and even addictions such that you can't trust yourself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2012 08:23AM by bc.

No offense, but I don't believe there is a righteous spook. I'm of the opinion it is all a fairy tale. All of it.

Only you can answer your question and you don't trust yourself.

Nephi committed aggravated robbery and cold blooded murder and the Holy Ghost is reputed as staying with him....I think on that basis you'll be fine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2012 08:46AM by Stumbling.

On another post some time back it was noted that the HG is said to flee whenever you do something wrong. An example would be one time in my HighSchool Seminary when the teacher had the whole class practically in tears, and then somebody farted. People giggled and the MOOD was broken. At a time when the Holy Ghost was believed to be strong with us and testifying of the truth, he simply up and ran off because a student did something embarrassing.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,522596,522596#msg-522596

Besides all that, if YOU repent (and I should when I sin) will the evidences to support the Book of Mormon suddenly appear after all these years?
If I repent of whatever sins I have committed, will the sermons on Blood Atonement disappear from original documents and our memories erased regarding it?
If all of us at RfM went back to church and paid all of our back tithing, will Egyptologist around the world change their minds and endorse the Book of Abraham?

I just reread your post a little closer and I think maybe you are asking a different question than I first interpreted it as.

There was a time in my life when I had serious doubts about the church but I tried to keep believing because I was unworthy of having the Holy Ghost, according to Mormon teaching.

So I figured I couldn't judge if it was true or not because I didn't have the Holy Ghost.

Once I reread I realized this may be what you are asking.

Here is my experience:

I had a couple of really strong spiritual experiences and reconverted back to really believing for a while. At that time I had the spirit with me completely and was completely worthy based on Mormon belief. I still couldn't believe it and ultimately decided it was a bunch of bunk even though I was doing everything "right".

So yes, you can trust yourself. The whole you are under the influence of Satan and don't have the Holy Ghost so you can't see the truth thing is false. It's not true no matter what.

Take a step back and ask yourself if you're a moral person. Not a sinner or immoral by LDS standards. Just a person who doesn't kill, rob banks, etc. LDS inc aside, are you a good standing human being?

Your "sins" have no relevance on your ability to discern truth vs falsehoods.

Think of it as an opportunity to free your mind.

That's a setup. Because NOBODY is 100% worthy. Not even the ones who claim to have received personal revelation/testimonies.

EVERYBODY deserves the truth.

What kind of Father would deny the truth to his children, unless they submitted their will completely to him? What kind of father would tell his children NOT to think for themselves, but to look to him for every answer? What kind fo father would limit his children's access to information to learn for themselves? And what would be the result for the children who grew up, unable to think for themselves or make decisions?

The LDS church cripples people. It makes them distrust themselves and their ability to think for themselves. It makes them vulnerable to manipulation. Even IF it were true, those things would be reason enough to RUN from the church. But it's NOT EVEN TRUE.

Once you find your way out, and overcome the fear conditioning, you will be amazed that you ever believed it.

I, honestly had done nothing wrong. I wasn't perfect, but just about as good as a little Mormon girl can be. No breaking of the 10 commandments. My hubby came to me in June, telling me he didn't believe. I was never so shocked in my life. I prayed harder than ever, read my scriptures 2+ hours a day, seeking guidance in how to help him. I had already been reading at least 1/2 hour a day. I received inspiration that I needed to understand him, listen to him, and study with him so I could bring him back.

I studied, I saw the truth, and now here I am, sipping my coffee, reading RfM and writing to you. The church is not true.

Forget the Ten Commandments.(See link below)

Have you actually done morally reprehensible things, stolen for example, or abused or taken advantage of another person? Have you acted with disregard for the well being of your community? Have you made use of cruelty or intimidation? If so, cut it out. No, you cannot trust yourself if you are being a creep, and neither can anyone else.

VANITY FAIR: Christopher Hitchens's Ten Commandments - YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-63cTYJDCA

There you go. Don't be a jerk, man.

you don't need a person or spirit outside of yourself to be able to trust yourself. YOU are the first person you should trust. God made you in his image, right? So why would you hand over your instincts to an invisible ghost? What does your gut tell you about the church? In my experience, if it feels wrong, it usually is. It's even more wrong when it's not backed up by facts. You were given your own brain for a reason. Trust yourself FIRST...after all, it's YOUR life. Right?

It is not very helpful to ask wether you can trust yourself or not. In a sense you always have to trust yourself anything else is simply impossible. and I'll explain further what I mean by that if you want me to. The question is, which parts of yourself can you trust?

Let me reframe the question before I give you my answer: Can you trust your assumptions? The assumptions in your question is that there is an invisible magic friend that guides you except when you break a commandment, then that magic friend disappear and leave you without any means of knowing what is true. At the same time you sense that something is wrong and you have a nagging suspicion that your own intuition perhaps is worthy of trust. This is my interpretation of your situation. So it'll be what I respond to.

First of all, good news, there seems to be nothing wrong with your logic chip here, I'd say you should trust it since the confusion you display follows completely logically from the clash of long-held assumptions vs recent experience. Your assumptions here are demonstrably false though (this I know for a fact through personal experience) and you should seriously put them to the test, which it seems you are already doing. And yes, your intuition, although not foolproof, is certainly far more trustworthy.

Let me now tell you what IMHO you should treat with scepticism in yourself: Warm fuzzy feelings, a 'still small voice' and 'understanding everything'. Let me also tell you what I think you should trust in yourself: The ability to learn, to reason, your logic, your intuition and your integrity. That is, your right to determine for yourself what is true and valuable without fear of fire and brimstone.

The fact that you are even asking this question indicates that you have a conscience and want to do what's right. Take my word, you can depend on yourself. You have a normal sense of morality already. All of us do bad things, but there's no reason that should affect future actions. If you feel bad about those, just take it as a lesson on what not to do and move on.

The biggest scam of all time is religion's habit of teaching that all knowledge of right and wrong, all morality an ethics come from deity. We are evolved as social beings and have an innate instinct to "be good."

One apologetic's response was something he called "kicking the ladder out." He was making the claim that his opponent just got all his morals from God and is now just claiming they belong to him. That's BS.

Anyone but a sociopath has this sense. Sin is a construct, a list of things that are "always bad," and granted many of those are. But some are situational. For instance, the place I work considers that taking things out of the garbage to recycle them at home is stealing. It would not be a "sin" to disobey this rule. It just might be inadvisable due to consequences if caught.

Killing is almost always wrong, but even that can't be a blanket statement. In self-defense or war, you might have to.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2012 12:58PM by rationalguy.

Of if the other guy has brass plates that you really really want and the voices in your head tell you to do it...

Can you trust yourself while drinking the Kolobian Koolaid?

lol

I'll just repeat what the other posters have said:

>>>"Your "sins" have no relevance on your ability to discern truth vs falsehoods." Mormoney

>>>"Don't be a jerk, man." Winkswinks

(The Priesthood leaders will make God forgive you, if you pay them enough money. They tell God what to do.)

"You know right from wrong. Do what you honestly think is right. If you aren't sure what you honestly think, you simply need more information." Forestpal

"To listen to the heart is the truest wisdom." Leo Tolstoy

"To listen to the heart is the truest wisdom." Leo Tolstoy

Religious and other fanatics have been listening to their hearts for thousands of years while committing every kind of stupidity. The word 'heart' confuses us. It seems to be a kind of shorthand word for deep feelings, great passion of commitment and so on. These feelings of ours are not and never have been, reliable indicators of what to believe or the best way to behave.

As others before me have aptly noted, religion in general, especially the Mormon church, places itself on a moral pedestal of sorts. TSCC claims to be a complete, self-contained system of truth, a system which inherently looks down upon any attempt, no matter how sincere or innocent, to look beyond its bounds for clarification or elaboration. It's ludicrous, and also happens to be a perfect example of a metanarrative. I won't get too far into postmodern theory here, but a metanarrative is basically any grand, overarching story that claims to fully explain life or truth or some major facet of our existence. Even modern science may be considered such, albeit a much more reasonable, rational approach. Anywho, my take is yes, you can trust yourself. If not, then there's no where to begin this discussion.

Life is not so black and white as the mormon church teaches.

You are not either perfect, or a total loss. There are many many shades of gray between those two extremes.

I think that some people who leave mormonism, especially if they were strictly raised in it, go a bit off the deep end at first.

They have no idea what balance is.They have no idea what a boundary is. They have had their morality compass controlled by an outside source. The challenge for them is to find it. Find what really makes them happy. Find what they think is right and wrong. Find what they think about many many things that had previously been decided for them.

Of course, society will help you out a bit. You may decide it's ok to get falling down drunk, and then drive. Society will let you know loud and clear that is not ok. Especially if you hurt someone. You will find yourself behind bars having all of your decisions made for you. Again.

Be reasonable. If a mormon tastes wine, they are considered to be sinning. If a catholic tastes wine, it's called communion. See how that can work? To me, if I taste wine, i'm just tasting wine. That's it. Next question, is it good enough to drink more? Yes? ok, i'll buy a bottle. No? next!

Study humans and how they behave. Study yourself. How do you want to be? Do you meet your own standards? Do you know what your standards are? Time to find out.

It depends what you mean by "trust yourself"

If you believe in the Holy Spirit, and you believe that it will be the delivery mechanism for truth... then no. You can't trust yourself... but it has nothing to do with righteousness, because you wouldn't be able to trust yourself anyway.

The whole purpose of the HG is to force you NOT to trust yourself, but to instead blindly follow any direction in the dark where you feel slightly different.

But even if the HG were true, & even if he had left you because of sin... it doesn't change facts.

Read, study, come to the obvious conclusion.
Feelings & intuition aren't valueless... but they've never been trustworthy per se.