To continue the discussion from the now closed thread, "Reflections on a Courageous Straight Man," MJ, enlighten us:

Where should we look to find gay *friends*?

Steve

PS It becomes everyone's problem each time that another human being contracts HIV.

And meeting friends through friends. I certainly do NOT go to craigslist looking for friends, I simply am NOT that stupid.

I enjoy hiking and camping so I do stuff with gay hiking and camping clubs. You know, I do not stupidly look at craigslist for friends, I find gay groups that share common interests.

I also have volunteered at places like Gay Community centers, gay pride festivals, which works much better than stupidly looking towards craigslist for friends.

I also have joined gay sports leagues, again, far better for meeting friends than stupidly looking at craigslist for friends.

As far as on line? Again, I look for common interests, like: http://www.gayoutdoors.org/ rather than stupidly looking at craigslist for friends.

If I want sex, I will go to craigslist and have no problem with it, if I want friends, I look elsewhere.

This is simple stuff GP.

Those are good suggestions, MJ, except that I question the wisdom of pursuing an anonymous sexual encounter, as you alluded to hypothetically.

I thought that you had a boyfriend whom you loved very much (two years ago).

What happened?

Steve

But is MY decision to make and my risk to take. It is no more you business to define how and where I seek sexual release than it is the LDS.

Our society is based on rights and responsibilities. You've benefited from society. In turn, you owe it basic reciprocity, which includes, but is not limited to, taking care of yourself and not harming others--i.e. implementing the non-harm principle.

If you can have casual sexual encounters without harming yourself or another male psychologically or physically, then by all means, go for it. But if you can't, remember that both of your lives are on the line.

Freedom carries responsibility. I believe in erring on the side of caution.

Steve

Gay Philosopher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Our society is based on rights and
> responsibilities. You've benefited from society.
> In turn, you owe it basic reciprocity, which
> includes, but is not limited to, taking care of
> yourself and not harming others--i.e. implementing
> the non-harm principle.

Which is why I have played safe and have never contracted an STD including AIDS and thus have never transmitted such diseases, so, where have I harmed society?

>
> If you can have casual sexual encounters without
> harming yourself or another male psychologically
> or physically, then by all means, go for it. But
> if you can't, remember that both of your lives are
> on the line.
>

Thank you, so why are you being so critical of those that do such things?

> Freedom carries responsibility. I believe in
> erring on the side of caution.
>

Well, I must have been cautious enough, so, were is a legitimate complaint about my promiscuity?


And again, why did this change from looking for friends to a critique of my sexuality?
> Steve

And why did this shift from looking for friends to being critical of sexual practices you personally do not like?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2010 05:51PM by MJ.

One of the toughest businesses in Utah to engage in is owning a gay bar...

That's because, frankly, most of you guys just don't imbibe that much; you're there for social reasons in many cases... Wusses (big smiley face)

SLC
Damn lucky not to be HIV positive himself,
And I promise I've had more thoughts of joining the LDS Church than having a gay partner...

Gay Philosopher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> PS It becomes everyone's problem each time that
> another human being contracts HIV.

Yes, HIV is "everyone's problem" and not just a problem for or a condemnation of gays.

Where are you located?

Hi Michael,

I'm in Wisconsin.

Steve

Gay Philosopher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Michael,
>
> I'm in Wisconsin.
>
> Steve

You're a little far from me, then, However, if you'd like someone to "talk to," (e-mail, skype, whatever), let me know.

Steve, it seem plain that you're VERY scared about AIDS. I really understand that. I came out in the last 80's, and lost a lot of friends to AIDS. Most of those people contracted it before we knew about how one could protect oneself from HIV. I've had a vigorous and healthy sex life as a gay man for 22 years without contracting HIV by using a condom... make that LOTS of condoms.

You'll find it easier to find gay friends if you're not so judgmental about how some gay men find sexual satisfaction. If you don't like craigslist or gay.com don't go there. But the internet is probably the best place for most people to meet other gay people who share interests.

BTW, I met my partner seven years ago at a GAY BAR *gasp*. We share a house, a ranch, a business, and 2 beautiful children (our girl RUBY, doberman pinscher, and our boy TOMMY a German Shepherd).

He also seems uninformed about the realities of AIDS and seems to hold on to the notion that AIDS is a gay thing and an indictment of gays. At least that is the way he comes across to me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2010 05:40PM by MJ.

Yes MJ, can you imagine thinking that having sex if your gay is tantamount to attempted manslaughter? This poor thing needs to be handcuffed to a sling for a week!

Your snarky allusions to the probability that any gay male who is having consensual sex with someone he may or may not know is an intentional disease-spreading fiend from hell are laughable.

Your terror of and paranoia regarding HIV/AIDS is irrational: you fabricate imaginary situations (and very obviously have no evidence to back up such claims), make sweeping generalizations, and vaguely—and I might add SELECTIVELY—citing CDC reports on the frequency of incidence in sexually-active gay men in large cities. If you really are a philosopher you are soft on intellectual rigor, finding facts to give a custom-fit to your hypotheses, rather than finding all available data and presenting it whether you are wrong or right.

IOW, you are talking—and alluding to the alleged sins and crimes of others—from out of your ass.

If this is the line you're talking when in conversation with gay men (or lesbians, or queers, or ...) then it is no wonder you end up getting nowhere in "real" relationships. You probably see yourself as Jeremiah, hollering dire warnings into the gay wilderness. Guess what: nobody could stand ol' Jerry way back when, and the world continues to this day. So you can philosophize this: where is all this negative paranoia getting you? Quick answer: nowhere. How to resolve the issue? Make a sea-change while you still can, with the help of a competent therapist who will call you on your shit if necessary. Otherwise I guarantee you're going to get even more paranoid and even more shrill with every passing lonely year. And god knows we had enough of shrill from "Just say 'NO!'" lonely old bag types with Nancy Reagan and that was what, twenty-five years ago already? Get over your irrational self-hating self and just get on with it. Change your tired old song, go make some friends, and stop worrying about sterilizing every doorknob you see. Chances are 99:1 that no homo has used his butt-muscles to twist it within five minutes of your sanctified arrival.

*SNAP*

It doesn't make sense to continue this thread publicly, because it's become a fox hunt for entertainment instead of meaningful discourse.

It's just a bit too weird to read someone posting a kind-hearted message, only to follow up with a sarcastic one. It's sad and ridiculous. I often think that the two most important gay friends that I've ever had will be the two most important gay friends that I'll ever have had (and I hope to live for many decades more). Both of them are dead. We Americans call the dot at the end of a sentence a period. The British call it a "full stop."

I think this thread has come to a full stop. But I'm happy to talk with anyone who would like to talk in private. E-mail me, if you like, at gayphilosopher@gmail.com.

Life is too short--way too short--to spend it attacking well-intentioned people.

The reason that I called the father at the ex-Mormon conference at 2008 courageous is that he had the courage to stand apart from the majority, even if for a few minutes, to honestly try to learn something. For a moment, Jeff, the father, and I formed a circuit. There were no enemies there. There was no bad feeling. There were only three people meaningfully communicating, and that happens far too infrequently. Both "there," and "here."

To answer my own question about where to find gay friends, I think about Doug and Mike. I found Doug through his website (he was an incredibly, jaw-droppingly talented writer), which I found through "Matt," (the fellow who sadly contracted HIV), and I met "Matt" on gay.com--not seeking sex, but meaningful conversation (which, amazingly, I found). That was more than a decade ago. And through Doug, I met Mike. We became instant friends, and I desperately miss him. But Doug, for me, was The One Great Friend--not a friend that I agreed with (we fought all the time), but one that I loved and was there for regardless of what happened. And yet that love wasn't enough to save him. I would have done anything, but never had the chance, and the loss is irreparable--for all of us who cared about him.

Doug understood this life in the same way that Camus did. He understood the brute reality and the brutality of it. He understood that in the end, you had only your own strengths to depend on. The universe is merciless and uncaring. It is blind to human suffering, mute to loss, and deaf to hope.

But individual strengths can be amplified, if coordinated. Cooperation can improve the world. Either all of you misunderstand me or think that I'm simply naive, ignorant, homophobic, moralistic, or a variety of other entertaining adjectives. I see myself as someone who cares deeply about living a meaningful and happy life, while feeling overwhelmed by my own suffering and the suffering of others. The only constructive way I can think of to move forward is together, and so the topic "Where To Find Gay Friends" is appropriate.

But I could have stated it better. It should have been, "Where To Find Happy Friends."

Steve

Gay Philosopher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It doesn't make sense to continue this thread
> publicly, because it's become a fox hunt for
> entertainment instead of meaningful discourse.
>

It does not make any sense to have a discourse with you because you reject anything that conflicts with your ideas. It is clear you have no idea how to make gay friends, happy or otherwise, or you would never have had to start this thread. It is clear that you did not expect a reasonable answer or you would never have tried to shift from making friends to sex when you got a reasonable response to your questions.

The list I gave you does indeed lead to meeting happy friends. The implication that people that have disagreed with your drivel are not happy is arrogant nonsense at best, most likely pure delusional crap.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2010 09:51PM by MJ.

You're causing your own suffering, and wallowing in it. No matter what is said on your threads, you find a way to take offense. Man up, Bucko. You're not the dead one. You'll never find gay friends while you're too afraid to be gay, and you'll never find "Happy Friends" while being totally committed to UNHAPPINESS.

You spent a long time on this site today dogging people who use GAY.com and the internet to meet people, and yet on your final post we find out that you're a big fat hypocrite who used the SAME EXACT SITE to find the only two gay people you ever liked.

And since you don't seem to have the least bit of a clue, the "nice father that you met at the exmo conference" is what we call a "closet case" or self loathing homosexual, much like yourself... which is the real reason that you felt a connection.

sonoma Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You're causing your own suffering, and wallowing
> in it.

Yes, you have Gay Philosopher figured out.

More than anything it seems that he gets off on the sexual tension created by his denial of his own sexual urges. My guess is that when not lurking here and brow beating healthy gay men, he's in a tea room, beating something else.

OK, so I'm assuming this thread is about how to have friends who happen to be gay. First, what are you interested in? Find gay people who are in to the same things.

My wife just happens to be a dancer, and we have gay friends who are in to dancing. We didn't plan it or manufacture it. We have friends who are in to the same things, and they happen to be gay.

I don't know what Craigs List has to do with the discussion. It is not much more than a booty-call for gays, straights and in-betweens.

I gave him a great list of ways to make friends, happy friends, that all revolve around doing things one likes. The response was basically, well thats all fine and good but your sex habits are wrong and suck.

unfortunately wine country girl, that doesn't hold for masturbation, mental or otherwise.

If you saw the earlier thread, you'd know that gay(sic) philosopher(sic) was using 'finding a gay friend' as a platform to bash healthy gay men. Apparently, it wasn't until he found the gay ads on craigslist that gay(sic) philosopher(sic) realized that gay men were sexually active... something he, strangely, finds problematic. Some philosopher...