Why do I feel that way? Well, because I think that the mentality and attitude going on right now really sucks and I do not want that kind of irrational mentality to be a part of our future.

I made a deal with a client earlier this week to perform work on some off his manufacturing tools. I got a full-schedule, so I really made a detailed and resonable deal with the client so that he really knew what was going on in my business. I told them what they needed to know about my work and time needed to perform a good work. We agreed, but he was a bit grumpy about it (that irritated me)

Guess what he did today? He just walks in hours before and rants and rave, blame my co-workers for not living up to the deal. He lied, told them that I had promised to finish the work before the deadline we agreed on. He broke the contract and our gentleman agreement. He did not know that I was there, so I just walked out, right into the ranting and told him that he was lying and that I had never made such a deal. I know this for sure, because I know my business and trade, I would never have made such a deal based on the facts that we have at our company.

And this is how it is, people make deals, talks and agree with each other, but as soon as the work starts, the details of the deal is being obscured.

I found this mentality in this chapter in the double bind-book by Marion Stricker.

http://www.exmormon.org/pattern/nature.htm

It f_cking sucks to make business like this. I can not imagine our economy of the future will be based on this stressful and irrational mentality.

You have a point. Unfortunately, and paradoxically, I blame some of the national mentality on the general attitude regarding moral misbehavior.

The 'Fear of God' as a motivator for proper social and business behavior is disappearing from the collective moral compass of the country. Even people who profess to be religious, deep down know that 'going to hell' is an abstract concept and they are willing to take their chances in order to screw others for their personal gain.

While religion certainly is to blame for a great deal of the world's problems, some sort of other method of demotivating bad behavior has not replaced the religious precept of eternal punishment for bad behavior toward others.

What is lacking is some kind of standards of conduct. Personally I have noticed that I have started to confront people much more than I did before. It is a question about protection and psychological survival, if we would say yes to every demand we would all burn out.

I feel rage when I notice that my clients will try to tilt the table after the deal is done. It is showing a lack of respect. We at our company knows what we need to do and it is demoralizing to fight with someone who do not wants to understand us and the facts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2012 02:20PM by volrammos.

The business climate forces you to bring out the big guns just to maintain your position. If you try to act with morality and respect, you will be taken for everything you have and will not be respected by your allies and foes alike.

It is a lousy business climate...

I'm not sure I "git ya". OK so a customer treated you crappy and you want the economy to fail?

I'm not with you on this man. Too many people are counting on things getting better. It's our collective future. Things aren't perfect. They never will be. But I would argue that society, human society, is actually getting better. It's a long road in front of us, but we are taking steps.

Hang in there...

Hi elcid.

It is not just one customer.

Imagine making deals week after week that the customers do not respect.

It is bad attitude. It got to go. Simple as that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2012 02:30PM by volrammos.

Right... Everyone should suffer because volrammos is unhappy with his clients.

I am talking about a collective-suffering.

What has to go belly-up is demoralizing behaviour.

Demoralizing behaviour is to show lack of respect.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2012 02:35PM by volrammos.

Oh, I thought you said you want the economy to go belly-up.

The religionists are so anxious for the end of the world to come. Tsk tsk.
The ones who really care are trying to prevent one. No help from the dodos who think they are going to heaven.

It sounds like you are tired or attitude not economy.... Maybe get some tougher skin??

In an economic collapse the poorest are hit hardest. I can't agree with wishing for such a calamity.

If my husband copped this attitude we would all get up in the morning, drive to the gas station, then walk home for the lack of gasoline. If you stopped at the store on your way home, it would be closed. They wouldn't have anything to sell. Not a beer in sight. All because someone was a jerk.

I'll bet you wouldn't think your idea was all that brilliant then.

Put it in writing, Volrammos.

I learned something from a former manager. He used to give clients delivery dates that were in excess of what he expected the work would really take. If he thought the job would take eight weeks then he would tell the client twelve. The result was that most clients were pleasantly surprised when the job was finished "early." If there was an occasional, inevitable snafu, then the job was completed by the promised date, and the client was still satisfied that the job was completed "on time."

Just one thing I learned from Judge Judy. If it is not in writing it never happened.

Yeah, business should always be on paper. This way you can screw them back for breaching anything.

We should start the church of Judge Judy. I love her!

Thats my BIL!! :)

When the economy collapsed, I suffered immensely because the bottom dollar was always one I was using. I had no chance to save anything and was often going without a meal (bad for a diabetic). When I met my fiance, I had a 13 year old Chevy with 250k miles which was half black and half red, had $3,000 of credit card debt to pay for food, and no savings at all. Well, I could have had something, but the mission saw to it that I had nothing. I was working luckily for 30 hours a week, and was also a student.

She on the other hand just kept on with life, being rather wealthy. No effects to her as her car, condo and everything she owned was paid off, so the economy really didn't touch her.

I was just trying to agree with someone who said that it affects the poor the most.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2012 10:51PM by notsurewhattothink.

Some were so bad I actually started making voodoo dolls of them. Just for therapy, LOL!

Those people ruin business for everyone. But later I turned them into funny stories to tell all the clients who came later about why I impose strict contracts on my clients. Yes, I named names. The new clients were amused, and nobody ever tried to stiff me like the others had tried to.

If you have a client who will not sign a contract, you DO NOT want him/her for a client.

I know a whole lot of people who are suffering right now. The economy isn't going belly-up, it already did so. Those numbers of unemployed, when you actually know them, they are not numbers. The house next to me was a two bedroom that had six adults and two kids living in it, because only a couple of them were employed.

My parents lost their entire life savings when their business went under.

I am waiting for this economy to turn around, not go belly up.

I don't think it's a good idea to "want" the economy to go belly up. A lot of people suffer when that's the case. What we need is a sustainable economy, one that we most certainly do not have.

Anyway, if you think it's going down and want to prosper anyways, put in some shorts, particularly on the big banks, maybe some puts to leverage the position somewhat. Get rich while everything gets cheaper. Good luck.

Anecdotally, most nevermo's I talk with say they hate doing business with Mormons because they are so dishonest in business. It's like they think if they go to church, pay their tithing and follow WOW and chastity, it's okay to cheat people in business.

Okay. Let's say the economy did go belly up about, ummmm, three years ago.

Did that change anything?

Were the immoral degenerates repentant of their behavior? Did a bunch of people losing their life savings, retirement, and job opportunities fix anything? Did it make the assholes suddenly start behaving honorably?

Do you see the problem with your logic yet? What is lacking in your business is a simple concept, easily rectified. One word.

CONTRACT.

People honor deals when they are in writing and there's some teeth to trying to change the terms of the deal after the work has begun. If you aren't getting clients to sign an agreement in writing with respect to the scope of the project in relation to the payments you're expecting, along with attached timelines, then the problem isn't the economy. It's not "people." The problem isn't even your clients. The problem is you. WTF are you thinking, people honor handshake agreements these days? Protect yourself and quit your bitching. Get the deals in writing. Any time a client whines, whip out the contract and show them what they've agreed to.

Problem solved.

You're welcome.

1. People in many industries routinely honor handshake deals.

2. Written contracts are breached and litigated daily.

People with bad businesses practices are just a reality of doing business in any economy.

Right, but if there's a contract and the terms are breached, there's more/better recourse than simply wringing your hands and hoping it all turns to shit. Note, your post used the word "litigated." See, right there? Recourse.

ETA: Also, I have to let you know that I do not appreciate the patronizing tone when you point out to me that people in business honor handshake deals all the time. Do you think I've never held a job? I haven't spent the last 20 years working in the business world? Yeah, handshake deals exist, but try to make one with a car salesman, see how far you get. If the stakes are that high, then put it in writing. Thanks for treating me like an infant.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2012 04:03PM by dogzilla.

simply is not correct. Additionally, your "WTF are you thinking, people honor handshake agreements these days" IS patronizing. In many industries, multimillion deals are routinely done on a handshake, at least in principal, all the time. On the other hand, there's almost always something to fight about in a written deal, even one all parties think is "bulletproof" at the time it's entered. "Get it in writing" is obviously generally good advice, but it doesn't necessarily save you from a headache if the counterparty just wants to blow up a deal or has no ethics. It's certainly not the OP's fault that his counterparty engages in poor business practices.

I find that person-to-person trust between purchasers and providers is crucial for success in the business world. Around 10-20% of the customers out there don't see to understand the nature of this two-way street. Such individuals can sometimes be successful but the odds really are against them because they won't be as likely to establish a good reputation and network to breed success in their future. I wouldn't worry about them but just move forward and recognize that this happens and its part of doing business.

I personally do NOT hope for the economy to tank. But if there is one thing I've learned about the history of economics it is that up cycles and down cycles do happen. After every up cycle there will be a drop and after every down cycle there will be a recovery. And it's important for people to be prepared for the down cycles. The problem is that when things are bullish that people tend to forget that there's a thing called RISK. And then panics happen as the market discovers that there really are risks out there that will cause customers to cut way back on buying products. Eventually the fact that people have to eat and people want things & riches comes into play and the only way to make that happen is to get out there and work. As a result up cycles come :) Every once in a while we can have multiple down cycles in a row. For example, the 1929 US stock market crash followed by the 1931 Creditstalten collapse in Austria led to a double dip crash. The basic rule of thumb IMO is to not overleverage ourselves beyond our risk tolerance.

Yes.

I have hedged. No problem at all.

I have not leveraged.