Quick background on me (brand new to the board)- I come from a long line of pioneer era mormons. Was active in the church until I was 13 and had some horrific experiences of abuse by church members (beehive leader when I was beehive president). I was inactive from ages 13-19 when I became pregnant, moved back home and kind of reactivated. Married at 20 to a convert who had been ex'ed but wants to go back, 2 more children, now 25 and separated with children ages 6, 3.5, 1.5. I tried to go with the kids on my own for years, asking bishop for help, etc and never got any support so here I am- no testimony, beyond done with the LDS church.

Now onto my question- when I was a single mom I asked our bishop about paying tithing on child support. The CS order is substantial and I was able to be a SAHM (though things were always tight), so no other income was coming in. I was told that yes, I needed to pay on the child support and really feeling like I wanted to be a "good" member I did. The amount of tithing that I paid in that time before we moved and changed wards was close to 5k. In our new ward the bishop interviewed me and asked about tithing. My husband was not supposed to pay because of excommunication and I asked about paying on child support. He looked it up in the book and said that you are NOT supposed to pay on CS, the original bishop was wrong.

I have been really struggling financially to keep things normal for my kids. We have a small apartment and I have a part time job (my boss is an LDS bishop, but does not preach to me), but I can not afford to turn my heat on or do basic maintenance to my car, pay for any extras, etc. I am considering going back to dancing (yes, that kind), but would like to avoid it. Getting back my wrongly paid tithing would really help me right now, would I have a chance of getting it back because it was paid when it should not have been according to THEIR rules and because of false info that I got from the bishop? How would I go about attempting to get this money back? If it is not recoverable I understand, it just makes me sad that I was given wrong info and struggled so much back then because of it.

Richard Packham has an essay that basically says "no chance in hell of getting that refund." Which of course in your case is very unfortunate. But you can always try...

Well of course, but this is a case of even the church saying that it should not have been paid.

It's not going to happen. Let it go. Consider it tuition in the school of life.

Twenty-five is young. You have your whole life ahead of you. It may seem hard now, but it doesn't always have to be that way.

I would investigate community resources. See if your utility company has a program for low-income people. Try to find a food pantry, etc.

Then start planning for your future. You will need a job that pays well. I would look over the career options where training is available through your local community college or a trade school. The financial aid office at the community college might be able to help you find a way to make it work financially. Slow, steady steps will get you where you want to go.

Thanks for the reply.

Our utility company does have a low income program that gives an $18 monthly credit, I am in the waiting period to be approved. In the winter where we don't have to use heat very often the $18 credit will last us 7-8 days, but is still a help.

I am currently weighing my long term career options and hope to make a decision within the next couple of months and get started with my life.

Tell the bishop that paying the extra tithing depleted your resources and you are now unable to pay your rent (because you paid your heating bill- don't have $ for both). Ask him for emergency assistance to prevent eviction. Tell him you need the help through the winter and are making other life plans and don't expect to need help next winter.

He will say he only has assistance for active members. Tell him you overpaid your tithing, while you were an active member because of what they told you, which was false information. THen say, "So you treating me differently now because I do not attend?" Isn't that retribution? Isn't that discriminating?

Providing people with false information which results in getting more money out of them is called "unjust enrichment."

He will say his hands are tied or some such. Tell him you are going to the ACLU because you believe you have been discriminated against as a women, and that other women have been given accurate information and you were not and--here's the part that works-- tell him you are contacting the local newspaper to publicize the story so you let people know that they may not get correct information from their bishop.

I personally did not get reimbursed. A friend of mine and I both asked our bishops about net vs. gross on tithing and got different answers. I had not overpaid enough to make it worthwhile to go after it. At that time it was obvious that it was left up to the bishops to decide (!)these matters and they seem to have no direction from COB.

Anagrammy

...for career options here on the board. Chances are, one or more board members are engaged in that career or can otherwise give you advice. Don't pay or otherwise invest your time for career training before you've talked it over with at least a few people who have done the job.

Some questions I would advise that you ask each person in your prospective field -- a) What do you like/dislike about your job?, and b) What would you do differently given the chance to start over again? You can learn a lot by asking these questions, and can avoid some of the pitfalls that others have experienced.

- Paralegal or legal assistant
- Upholstery (I am a skilled seamstress)
- X ray tech
- MRI tech
- Physical Therapist
- Entrepreneur of some sort (another sewn product business? pole dance fitness studio? pottery painting?)

I work best for myself, but the jobs that allow me to be self employed require much more financial risk and I have no capitol to risk. I want something that pays decently, does not require a decade of schooling, family friendly hours, able to be sustained during hard financial times.

Right now paralegal and X ray are front runners, but I have not made my full lists of considerations and pro/con.

********

I asked my boss about the tithing thing today. He said that it is clear in the handbook that once money is paid it is gone. Fine, but it did make me well up and cry. Not because of what he said, but because I feel so stupid for having wasted part of my life, pissed away resources that would have made myself and my children more comfortable. I was just trying to be a "good mormon woman" in hopes that that would morph my husband into a good mormon husband who was nice to me and appreciated me. Yeah... didn't work. Silly fairytale.

I used to work in the home furnishings/interior decorating industry. It was fun but it's very much subject to the ups and downs of the economy. Pay varies but tends to be so-so, not great but not awful either. A downside is that customers often don't order things in time for the holidays. If they want a new sofa for Thanksgiving or Christmas, then they really need to get the ball rolling by August or September. They rarely do. Then you have a lot of people upset with you because you can't pull a rabbit out of a hat.

I agree with Anagrammy (below,) I'd look into the medical fields. You can train to be a Radiology Tech (MRI, etc.) through your local community college. It pays very well (comparable to teaching) for a relatively small time investment. From what I understand, you do have to be able to give injections in order to do contrast dyes for images.

Physical therapy assistant is another option that would take a two-year degree or less. It doesn't pay nearly as well as being a radiology tech, though (maybe 60% of a RT's salary in my part of the country.)

The Mormon church sometimes returns hundreds of thousands of dollars paid by people proven to have stolen money and paid tithing on it. They have a policy of returning those kinds of funds if it becomes known or there is publicity. I would not discount that they might return your child support tithing.

I'll tell you why. Child support does not belong to the mother. It belongs to the children. (I'm an attorney who practices family law among other things.) You paid tithing on your children's money which belongs to them. Parents are the managers of the money, of course, and can make choices on what to pay with the money for the overall support of their children. But church's have no claim on this money. When you were told that they did, they took your children's money, knowingly. The bishop made an error but mislead you into believing they had a tithing claim on your children's money.

I am willing to bet that if you presented it this way, they would refund the money, especially since it's only 5k. I saw bishops in my ward once give checks for more than 5k to struggling families in help. This is small potatoes. It's within the amount they are authorized to pay even to help a family. (Hell, I've had bishops pay my client's attorneys fees up to $2,500.)

You would not have a legal claim, at least not one worth bringing in court. But that does not mean you could not get the money back by petitioning all the church leaders you can, start with the bishop, stake president, on up, and let them know you intend to go all the way up to the highest leader until you get "my children's money back." They keep records of tithing so you would need to present them with the time frame and say everything you paid was from child support and it belongs to your children.

I'm willing to bet you'll get it back.

I used to teach Transition to Employment classes for low income single parents on welfare. I have also worked many years as a paralegal, sometimes for attorneys as a contractor, sometimes with lawfirms, sometimes for the public.

Having a paralegal certificate is pretty much a requirement, and you probably already know that. It is a professional designation like "writer"--and you will do a lot of writing, so be sure you can spell like the wind. If that is not one of your talents, reconsider, because you really don't have time to look up words and spell check will not help you avoid mispellings that are actual words, like there/their and prose instead of pro se. Having a degree in journalism, for example, means you can write, doesn't mean you know anything to write about. A paralegal has to have a specialty because this is the age of specialization. You would need to find someone in your legal area of interest who would be willing to let you apprentice (at low wages) until you can claim familiarity with that type of law. In rural areas, paralegals usually are glorified legal secretaries and do not make the big bucks. You would have to live in an urban area and have a specialty to be really comfortable and justify the sacrifices to get the education. The highest paid paralegals work for patent attorneys (because patent research is so tricky). The down side of paralegal work is that you do virtually ALL the work preparing a case, and just make your hourly while you see the HUGE settlement amounts come in, which you made possible. You begin to feel exploited unless your firm pays bonuses or you work for a sole practitioner who cuts you a special deal.

Another down side is that most attorneys are disagreeable human beings. Having 20+ years experience, I can count the attorneys on one hand who were wonderful human beings. This meant little to me at first when I was supporting children as a single parent (the $ was the important thing), but came to mean more as I became more sensitive to the importance of ethics.

When I was a contract paralegal, I worked in SLC for an online outfit and designed legal documents. The guy never paid me and uses my documents to this day. IMHO there is more fraud in the legal field, so if you chose to go forward as an independent with your own business, do not carry attorneys on credit. Take a clue from them, work from a retainer. The internet guy still owes me $5K.

In today's world of uncertainty, and with the hell that you've been through, I would recommend the health field as a less stressful work environment. (those who have actually worked in the field will be able to verify/deny). You can become an xray tech and go to work. Then you can pick up additional certifications to use expensive equipment, like ultrasound and nuclear.

Doctors can be difficult to work with, too, but you are not working as closely with them as you do with lawyers when you are a paralegal.

Good luck to you. You have to be strong for your children and focus on what you can do each day to move to a secure future for your family.


Anagrammy

Great insight on the paralegal option. I would be capable of doing it, but my concern there would be that I thrive off of personal interaction and I would worry that it would be a bit monotonous for my liking. Right now I work as a chiropractic assistant/front desk/billing and I really like that I get to meet and interact with a variety of people and that it is busy enough that I rarely get bored. Unfortunately, my current position doesn't give me enough hours to be comfortable.

I have been thinking about x ray and physical therapy since I had major knee surgery more than a year ago. The x ray tech in my orthopedic surgeon's office didn't have to see traumatic injuries like she would encounter at a hospital and worked really great hours. My physical therapist got to see many patients throughout the day and got the satisfaction of watching people heal and progress. I think both would be good options for me personality wise. Lots to think about.

I have a boyfriend that could get serious who would make life a lot easier financially when we move in together, but I have learned through this experience that I need to have something to fall back on. I do not ever want to be in this position again. Luckily, my kids are young enough that I don't think they are aware of how hard this situation is financially. We don't eat out anymore and we don't shop for luxuries, but they are pretty oblivious otherwise.

Sorry, you are going to have to pick another name. That is the Admin EMail and it will cause confusion. If I can help you with anything it is ExMoLight@gmail.com

As to some short term ways to make money, I would check with the local dry cleaners that do alterations and the wedding dress shops. You might be able to pick up a bit of cash working at home that way :)

Great minds think alike ;) I'll start brainstorming, how do I change my username?

And that is a real idea about teaching pole dacing at a gym. It really is one of the hot new exercise trends :)

I've often thought that the ONLY way of getting tithing money back would be to sue them on the grounds that they are using it for things other than what you have been told that they are using it for.

For example, how do you know that they are using the tithing funds you give them on building temples and churches and not on Wall Street hedge funds, billion dollar malls and Monson's salary? The answer is: YOU DON'T.

You just trust what they tell you.

A lawsuit would force them to do something they really don't want to do: open the books and show you where your money is going.

For some reason I think they would settle out of court. I have an overwhelming feeling that they pay hush money to people to keep scandels from coming to light. I have a feeling that they use tithing money to do all sorts of unethical things. Just a feeling on my part.

The trick is getting a lawyer who would want to take them on. Who wants to deal with a corporation that has it's own law school?

For me, the priority that jumps out is that the kids need heat in wintertime, especially the youngest. I'd first direct my energies at solving that problem.

There are so many good ideas posted already. I agree with the idea of using a community resource, such as a food bank, to supplement your food supply, which can help you to afford the heating bill.

My priorities (says she who has no kids) would be food and heat and I'd look into anything that could help to maintain those and then deal with the other issues in order of priority from there.

I know it would be tough to approach the Mormon Church for help if you're done with it, and I would struggle to ask for assistance in that case so I can see your dilemma there.

However, the last bishop you had who said you shouldn't have been asked to pay tithing from that money could be helpful in that he already knows the issue and your situation and perhaps starting with him is the way to go. If he cannot find a way to give you the cash back perhaps he could do it "in kind" as in giving you food or helping to pay utilities, at least up to the amount of tithing the church wrongly received from you. Appealing to him and being straightforward and specific about your situation (young kids, no heat in wintertime) could be the quickest route to receive assistance in meeting these basic needs asap. (The kids could be in college by the time a law suit winds up).

If that is not practical (he's not bishop any longer or you've moved away or you can't stand going near a church building, etc) perhaps there are community resources, as mentioned above, such as Catholic Charities that gives assistance to anyone, regardless of church affiliation.

It doesn't seem to me that pursuing a (likely doomed) law suit is the way for you to go on this. I'd utilize that time and energy instead on moving forward from the tithing thing. I know $5K seems like the answer to your present challenges but think of the time, effort, stress and money involved in going after it legally. First, you'd have to have funds to pay the lawyer. That could stop you in your tracks right there. And how much would be left of $5K after paying a lawyer even a nominal sum? I've never been to a lawyer who didn't want $1K slapped on the desk just for starters and a huge percentage of any settlement after that, plus expenses. (Not that they don't deserve recompense for their work but even a few thousand dollars is a hardship for many people, no matter how much they need the legal help).

The idea to approach local businesses who need an expert seamstress is a brilliant one! It could help in the short term.

Re the career plans - I agree that the medical field is a good one. It's always in the top 10 list of long term reliable jobs in any economy and if you work in a hospital (as likely in the fields of x-ray techs etc) you will likely receive benefits and a decent salary (at least here in Canada). As far as I know, the courses for this type of work are relatively short (like 6-9 months or at least well under 2 yrs) which is also appealing in your situation I'm sure.

Another field to perhaps consider is electrodiagnostic studies, used in Neurology, that include electromyography and nerve conduction studies. Some hospitals train you on the job for that and again, the pay and benefits are decent (I live in Western Canada and this is my experience; obviously, it could be different where you live). This would be excellent for you as you'd get paid while you learn. It's also considered a "tech" position, I believe, and there are allied fields that you can also get certificates in, building up your training and experience on the job, with regular pay increases as you become more skilled. Even if you have to take the training before landing a job, I think it's in the order of months (maybe 6), again desirable for a woman with young kids who needs income asap.

There would be good job security, a nice working environment, nothing too gory, probably a decent enough salary and likely with benefits, and regular hours, likely office hours in this type of specialty, and you could get the training under your belt in the order of months, not years.

Being a tech in radiology involves more training but also results in a higher salary, as you likely know, and maybe it would be easier to find work. It all depends on your location and interests. Hopefully you can train and work in a field that most interests you.

Can you state your general location so people can give more specific leads or advice?

It would be great if you could keep posting to get more feedback and ideas and also to let us know that you're warm and fed and things are looking up. Good luck to you!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2010 11:45AM by Nightingale.

Thank you for the reply! We are in Arizona, so heat is not usually a huge issue for us, but cooling will be an issue in the summer. I returned one of the baby's Christmas gifts for cash and loaded $20 on my prepaid utility card and turned on the heat. With our current usage, the $20 will last us 4 or 5 days which will be fine because my direct deposit is due any day and I get paid from my job on the 5th. I am working next Saturday and Sunday for a friend and that will pay me almost enough to renew my vehicle registration. I also got an order for a custom baby shower gift that will earn me $135 for an afternoon of work. It will work out.

I am still considering asking the bishop for some type of assistance. I wouldn't feel bad asking, I just don't want to be targeted as a project.

That all sounds great! I get what you mean about the bishop, not feeling bad about asking (as they "owe" you) but not wanting to become a target for "reactivation". I was lucky in that the bishop in the ward I attended actually listened and accepted my viewpoint when I stated clearly that I was never coming back, and nobody's ever been sent to try and change my mind, thankfully. If the bishop you spoke to previously is still around that would be great. He'd be up to speed with the situation and that will save time. I think your circumstances are different from others who want their tithing back after coming to disbelieve in Mormonism (which is understandable, if not likely to happen). You were directly instructed to pay tithing on that money, even when the bishop knew its source, and it is clearly outlined in the church's own handbook of instructions that such is not the case. I think that's a wrinkle in your favour, definitely. These factors make it reasonable to approach the current bishop. In that case, it may be worth mentioning that you're seeking legal advice about it as the church's rep clearly made an error that continues to have a significant impact on you and your children. Here's hoping the bishop will be moved to assist in direct ways like reimbursing the amount or at least paying the utility bills.

I find that these days, with so many people leaving and formally resigning, many church leaders are more used to the idea and there seems to be a policy now to just let the people go. I'd clearly state that this is a debt you consider they owe to you but that requesting assistance in this regard is not a sign that you will return. He should be able to comprehend and accept that, while still acknowledging that they owe you, literally.

Again, I don't think this is the usual case of just wanting tithing money back once you come to no longer believe, which is what I believe Richard Packham, among others, opines is just never gonna happen. Hopefully, that will weigh in your favour with the bishop.

And if reactivation efforts start to occur, it seems as if you're enough in control and well able to advocate for yourself that you can remind him/them that you have left and are not interested in changing your mind about that.

Good luck with it - and thankfully you're in desert climes! The snow on the trees is pretty, and we've got wintry sunshine today, making Christmas card scenes out there but man, it's chilly around here! Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. We would definitely be in emergency mode if the heat weren't blasting out of the furnace 24/7.

All the best.

Hi there, came across this site while reading up on LDS. I have to say some of what I have read is alarming at how easily people can be fooled.

The idea of making some money on the side to help pay bills is good. I don't know if the 'church' will pay you back but if you don't try you will never know. Definitely don't allow them to bully you further.

I would suggest offering classes in pole dancing at local gym's as a lot of ladies like the workout and if it's done with the workout aspect and not the voyeur one you should be fine. Maybe you can find someone who can film a youtube video to show folks how it is and how fit they can become doing it. It will help you sell the health benefits. You could also do a tupperware party idea where you can get a group of ladies together and show them how to do it and get word of mouth going. Again, I would highlight the health/fun aspects.

My 2 cents. Sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders and are trying your best to be a good mom. Too bad you got involved with such a poisoned environment but be thankful you are 'on the road to recovery'...congrats!

My husband is a Registered Nurse and has never been without a job. Anything related to the medical field pays really good money. There is a wide range of choices in the field and for most tech-oriented jobs you can get certified in less than a year. And your career will be 100% recession proof. Nice in this economy.

Good luck.

;o)

Have you considered nursing? You could get your nurse aid certifercate (these classes are usually held at local nursing homes for free and sometimes they will offer you a job after you complete the class...it usually takes anout 4 or 5 weeks). After you get that you would have a better chance of getting into nursing school and a lot of hospitals or nursing homes have a tuition assistance program. Trust me, there will hardly ever be a shortage of hours and you could work your way through school if this is an option for you. LPN takes one year , RN will take 3-4. A CNA will make anywhere from 8-12 dollars an hour , a LPN will make anywhere from 15-23 dollars an hour and an RN will make anywhere from 18-32 dollars an hour. I am a nurse and I have never had any problems finding a job. Goodluck ! Oh and just so you know, a Physical Therapist is a doctorate degree now in most states...(i think seven or eight years of school). But there is also the option of Physical therapist assistant..it takes about 3 years I think. They mostly help people with excercises and work under the PT. They make close to what an RN makes and you probably wouldnt have any problems getting a good job at a local hospital or home health agency. I had a PTA when I broke my femur and he was great! It looks like it would be a fun job.

I briefly thought about nursing, but I'm not really good with gory or gross things and could give an injection, but not place an IV.