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Posted by: greekgod ( )
Date: November 18, 2012 03:51AM

Ever wonder why there are pentagrams on the temple? What explanation where you given as to why they are on there?

I've read some articles that claim Joseph Smith and Hyrum were into the occult, and considering that he used "peep stones" to scry for gold, and also heavily borrowed from the Freemasons of which he was a member (who are often accused of being rooted in the occult), I would say it seems pretty obvious.

Out of curiosity, anyone lurking on this board who has some sort of association, past or present, with the occult? Mormonism excluded, of course.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2012 03:51AM by greekgod.

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Posted by: justrob ( )
Date: November 18, 2012 09:58AM

I researched this when I was a TBM & an anti-mormon coworker brought it up.

While stars were used in the occult, they were also used outside of is with no discrimination. It wasn't until the late 1850s when the "upside down star" or pentagram was claimed as "occult" whereas the "right side up" one was still considered wholesome.

If you look at the stars on the Salt Lake temple, it's about 50/50 upside-down/right-side-up, so it's pretty easy to see that it was a design choice, and not some deeper underlying secret.

...but it still is fun to use it to ruffle the feathers of TBM. Most deny that there are any upside down ones. Then you show them pictures online, & they will say "obviously that's photoshopped". Then you take them there in person, & their jaws just drop.

I always tell them the truth (just as I've laid out here), but first I say something like:
"You see, you can't just assume that you know the answer because you know what you want the answer to be. Please realize that you have this innate protective bias inside you, & evaluate whether you are doing this when I ask you other questions."

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Posted by: justrob ( )
Date: November 18, 2012 10:13AM

Here are some links:
When mormons used it:

Goat Pentagram = Fertility symbol (later claimed by satanists)
& free masons aren't satanists for using it, as it was only recently associated with the occult:

Upside down stars symbolized Winter instead of Summer:

...But for fairness, here is an article that holds an opposite-ish point of view:
(basically says, that pentagrams have always been fertility symbols- which it about witchcraft [trying to alter someones ability to create life] so it is still occult, even if it wasn't satanic. & JS liked folk magic => so it is occult)
...and I admit it is a note-worthy distinction to make between satanism & occult, but if you say "occult" any TBM will link it to satanism or at least heathen-paganism of some kind.

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Posted by: kentish ( )
Date: November 18, 2012 09:00PM

I could accept the argument that such signs are purely decoration if they didn't continue to use them on new buildings and such. Who in their right mind would decorate with swastikas, once an innocent symbol, knowing now what they represent in modern understanding.

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Posted by: xyz ( )
Date: November 18, 2012 09:05PM

Of course Xtianity saw those beliefs as a dire threat to their own hegemony and demonized them (literally).

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Posted by: sistersalamander ( )
Date: November 20, 2012 12:11AM


Pentagrams and pentacles aren't symbols of evil. They've been around for thousands of years (before Christians invented Satan). They even have a long history as a Christian symbol that has, at various times, represented the five wounds of Christ, the five points of fellowship, and the mysteries of Christ.

Pagans have used it for centuries to represent the five elements used in magick: Earth, Air, Fire, Water, and Spirit. Neo-pagans often see it as a person (think Da Vinci's Vetruvian Man) with a circle around him/her that represents the Universe. It's also a traditional goddess symbol and a protective image as well.

"The Occult" is an umbrella term, under which people inaccurately lump everything from vampires and werewolves to space aliens, telepathy, and valid Earth-centered spiritual paths. "Occult" simply means that which is mysterious or hidden. Generally, Mormons, don't like what they don't understand -- it scares them, so they demonize it.

Wicca, Druidry, Shamanism, Celtic Witchcraft, and other paths often incorporate magick, but it's very different from the "Hollywood" version (and the Harry Potter version, too). Mostly, we work with natural and divine energy to create positive change in ourselves and our environment -- not exactly the stuff that makes for scary movies or salacious gossip in RS...

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Posted by: AnonK ( )
Date: November 18, 2012 09:49PM

I know a lot of people on here are athiest. The following experience is for the religious among you, who believe that TSCC is evil. Since leaving Mormonism x3 years ago, I still believe in an afterlife and Good vs Evil, for one reason alone, which I will explain below. I believe that the mormon church is evil for this reason.

First a little background. Between the ages of 10-12, my mother was married to very cruel tempermental mormon man, who had several children - most were adult age. I'll call him Jack. I would consider Jack to be evil. Simply put he was just a mean cruel man. His solution to any social problem, was to physically fight, punish, and injure. He'd been a bishop. At church he was a saint, and well respected. At home, he was a devil. For instance, as a 10 year old boy, I was having difficulty with a neighborhood bully, who was picking on me and my little 7 year old sister at the bus stop. Jack told me to hit the boy in the face as hard as I could (cold cock him), and when he was on the ground "jump on him grab him by the hair, and pound his head into the concrete." That is a direct quote. To train his two german shepard to perform, he would kick them as hard as he could, until they went flying, if they disobeyed his command. You get the picture.

When I was 11, I slept down in the basement family room. I am 50 now. I have never denied this. I was fully awake, lying in my bed looking out an upper window. One moment I was gazing outside, and the next I was gazing at a demonic presence that appeared before me. It looked like a man, with sandy brown hair and dressed in a white robe. It was about 6 feet away from me stand about a foot off the floor, and surrounded by thick black darkness. I was not in sleep paralysis, dreaming, or under any influence. I was fully awake. I immediately pulled the covers over my head, and screamed bloody murder for my mom. I was freaked out for about 5 years after that. Slept with the covers over my head, and would never go anywhere alone. It was awful.

I attribute this experience to Jack, who was so evil, that he attracted stuff like this into his house. Now that I know about Joseph Smith, Brigham Young - and how truly evil they were - and how truly evil TSCC is, I do think TSCC is of the occult in a sophisticated way. They may not sacrifice little animals, or worship evil directly, but they are evil.

I know I know, nobody believes me. Go ahead an flame me. I shared this with the forum just after my exit with TSCC about 3 years ago. I have been a regular poster since then. I have never had anything like that happen again. I have never denied it in 40 years. I am professional, was a TBM, BIC, RM, YBU grad, temple married, HP, Bishopric, etc. I'm tellin' you...I saw it with my own eyes. If not for that experience at 11 years of age, I would probably be an athiest. Because I have solid evidence of something beyond normal, I believe there is something else going on. Another realm if you will. That doesn't mean there is a God per se', but something is going on - from my perspective.

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Posted by: hexalm ( )
Date: November 19, 2012 01:22AM

I won't flame you, but...maybe you saw a floating creature. Maybe it was really there, maybe not.

But why would a mean guy attract demons? Even if I believed in occultic beings, I'm not sure I'd accept your attribution.

also I'm curious--what was so demonic about it, other than the darkness? You said it looked like a man. *Completely* like a man? or with some departure?

Just curious. I'm a total skeptic, but I try not to dismiss odd experiences out of hand and am curious if you could share any more specific details.

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Posted by: sonoma ( )
Date: November 19, 2012 01:56AM

@ AnonK
i had a similar experience about 30 years ago. I thought that it was satan, as no other explanation seemed to make sense.

then one day i heard about a phenomenon that involved 'sleep paralysis', the condition that normally keeps us from walking around or moving while we sleep.

apparently it sometimes comes on us before we actually fall asleep. when this happens, it can be accompanied by intense visions, often involving devils, satan, or evil spirits. people experience these visions and the accompanying feelings as completely real. in my case it was quite terrifying.

i carried that fear with me for years until i heard the explanation of that experience in reference to 'sleep paralysis'. I think that if you do some research on this, you'll have a better understanding of the phenomenon and your experience. i hope that this will have as liberating an effect for you as it did with me!

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Posted by: cecil0812 ( )
Date: November 20, 2012 01:47AM


I know you say it wasn't sleep paralysis but... it probably was sleep paralysis. How would you know with certainty anyway? The person undergoing sleep paralysis isn't aware that that is the cause of the vision.

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Posted by: justrob ( )
Date: November 19, 2012 10:57AM

What purpose would this apparition have had? He did nothing & said nothing?

While there is substantial anecdotal evidence to give credence to claims like yours, I have a hard time believing that they are real when they behave so erratically.

That's why I always tend toward solutions involving deception & pranks (as there is a motivating factor). Also, I have first hand experience with pranking someone in ways like this, & them to this day being firm believers in the supernatural & citing the experience where we pranked them as evidence (even though we told them that we had done it, they don't believe us to this day).

I grew up in Idaho, & we got bored easily.
Most of them are experiences while camping, but not all.

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Posted by: kimball ( )
Date: November 19, 2012 01:16PM

If that had happened to me I would have reached out my hand to see what it felt like, or made a funny face to see how it reacted. Perhaps tried to give it five. For some reason, though, these beings only seem to appear to people who are deathly afraid of them.

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Posted by: sonoma ( )
Date: November 18, 2012 09:52PM

read 'early mormonism and the magic world view' by quinn.

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Posted by: shadowspade ( )
Date: November 18, 2012 10:18PM

As an FYI the Medal of Honor is also an upside down star.

In the end this doesn't mean that much. Or at least is isn't evil as some claim.

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Posted by: ozpoof ( )
Date: November 18, 2012 10:52PM

When the Brisbane Australia temple opened I walked around the two sides facing the street. There are no grounds really. It's crammed onto a block that used to have a stake centre.

What struck me at first was how Moroni has its back to downtown Brisbane, AND the street, which has a false entrance. The real entrance is around the back, so people entering will look up and see the front of the angel unless you enter from the basement carpark via the lifts (elevators).

I asked a Morgbot at work if this is why the statue has its back to the street, and she reminded me that "The Lord" will return from the east.

I believe this has a Masonic link with the east gate, but it's older than that. It's a fertility tradition to do with the return of the Sun, as is anything surrounding the winter (Northern Hemisphere) solstice, when the days get longer and warmer after this day.

Also surrounding the temple is the point-within-the-circle design, which can symbolize the Sun, or the (heterosexual) sex act. It too is a fertility symbol.

Mormonism is a fertility cult, but it is also thick with lies. If you wanted to establish an evil organization you would of course make it appear good while acting in an opposite fashion.

The Catholic pedophile cult sacrifices children's entire future lives. Mormonism controls the sex act for its own monetary gain.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2012 11:15PM by ozpoof.

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Posted by: Alice ( )
Date: November 19, 2012 01:01AM

I felt the presence of evil only once in my life. I was not watching a scary movie, or being mugged, or anything like that. The satanic feeling came upon me out of nowhere, for no reason. I was sitting between my mother and my grandmother, who were good people. It was midday. Suddenly, I felt intense, weighty hatred, like I wanted to kill everyone. I knew it was not "me." I felt that if this horrible entity did not go away, that it was going to annihilate me. And then it went, as fast as it came. Where was I? I was in the Mormon temple! For the first time. Every time I went to the temple, I felt Satan was there. It was a much, much less intense feeling, and I convinced myself that it must have been my fault. I was told that Satan could not enter a Mormon temple.

I do know that the man I married in the temple that first day, soon began to beat me almost every day, for no reason. He tortured and killed pets, too. Maybe the evil feeling was a warning. Maybe my subconscious caught some fleeting facial expressions, some subtle body language. He was so phony, that he had us all fooled.

If something feels evil--it is evil. Listen to your gut.

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Posted by: hexalm ( )
Date: November 19, 2012 01:29AM

But if it had something to do with him, why would you pick up on it when he wasn't right there with you? Even in a magical world, how does that make sense?

I'll add, there are tons of phenomena that can cause sudden feelings of dreadand such and they've been reliably associated with hauntings, etc.
(Primarily infrasound. For anyone curious what I'm talking about, try starting with this:
and the following section)

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Posted by: forbiddencokedrinker ( )
Date: November 19, 2012 01:06AM

Sacrament meeting and regular baptismal services, as far as I know, are considered sacred to Mormons, but they have never felt the need to threaten to slit throats over anyone revealing what goes on in those meetings.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: November 19, 2012 01:08AM

It's not an "upside-down star" it's a star that has been rotated 36 degrees.

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Posted by: Outcast ( )
Date: November 19, 2012 12:03PM

Jews, Christians, Mormons...all believe in blood sacrifice/atonement, don't they? Feels like voodoo to me.

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Posted by: justrob ( )
Date: November 19, 2012 12:13PM

Everyone draws their own line for "occult"

S'why we atheists find it hypocritical when religious people frown on it.

Do you believe in Satan? Do you believe he has power? How is that not occult?

Do you believe in ghosts (mormons may say no, but the spirit world counts as it is supposedly on this earth)? or Demons & possession? or a separate species of beings on this earth to aid in god's & satan's will (I'm mostly looking at catholics here)? How is that not occult?

To an atheist these words are largely synonyms:
--Occult / Supernatural / Magic
--God / Omnipotent / Omnipresent / All-powerful
--Priest / Sorcerer / wizard / witch / Priesthood / wizardry / Witchcraft
--Religion / Holy Ghost / Spiritual Presence / etc...

So we find it funny when people will praise "faith" & despise "the occult" just because they focus on different areas/beings in the magic realm.

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Posted by: vulcanrider ( )
Date: November 19, 2012 02:47PM

I've had this same discussion more than once with my religious friends. They can never explain to me why I shouldn't explore the paranormal (no real reason other than I find it interesting), but I should believe in someone that rose from the dead based on feelings from the Holy GHOST.

Nope, no hypocrisy there...

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Posted by: justrob ( )
Date: November 19, 2012 09:43PM

Well honestly I see more potential benefit from ghost hunting than I do from christ-worship.

If you are a good christian, you may one day receive some reward in the next life if there is one and if christ was the right guy to follow (2 excruciatingly big "if"s)

At least with ghost hunting you could gain a potential benefit here and now:
--maybe get your own TV show
--maybe learn for sure that there are/aren't ghosts & write some definitive best-seller
--maybe just have fun creeping yourself out a few times or scarings friends you talk into coming with you

Those are all real benefits (possible, measurable, & definite)
Religion only claims responsibility for good things you do yourself (like having a job, or good health) and everything else just comes out in the eternal-wash.

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Posted by: icanseethelight ( )
Date: November 19, 2012 02:23PM

For all the fun facts, and the 70's mormon version of what all the symbols mean, read Temple and Cosmos by Hugh Nibley.

It is full of some fucked up ideas.

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Posted by: siobhan ( )
Date: November 19, 2012 02:38PM

Yes. Used to hang out with OTO fools. thank God I wasn't cool enough to be 1 of them and could only watch. Same script different costumes. allegedly I could get stricken down for mocking the OTO. Oddly, I'm not concerned.

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Posted by: Heidi GWOTR ( )
Date: November 19, 2012 03:06PM

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Posted by: I Hear Ya ... ( )
Date: November 19, 2012 10:00PM

Thank you for your post, AnonK. I understand it well. I fully appreciate your sharing it.

Be assured that there are many who also "GET IT". I'm glad you are one of them.

Be Well ....

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Posted by: lucky ( )
Date: November 20, 2012 12:37AM

Joseph Smith was grasping at (the) straws of EVERYTHING to try to make himself seem legit as a prophet. At one point Joe said that Muhammad was a real prophet, UNDOUBTABLY to make it seem more plausible that he was real prophet too. TOo bad for Joe that Islam via the Koran denies the divinity of Jesus CHrist( I am saying that fact as an atheist)

SMith later used his BOOK of MORmON as a primary tool to establish himself as a supposed *prophet*, Smiths BOM emphatically states that anything that denies the divinity of Jesus Christ is of the Devil and that testimony of Jesus Christ in a divine capacity is the spirit (essence) of Prophecy.
Even very stupid people can see the devastating conflicted implications of Smiths actions in these instances, but MORmONS cant.

At the 1:16 mark vaunted MORmON scholar Hugh Nibley admits that early MORmON leaders taught that Muhammad was a legit prophet

the more a person learns about MORmONISM .....

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Posted by: Dee Lightsum ( )
Date: November 20, 2012 12:39AM

Crazy that this is on here! I haven't been on rfm much because I've been too busy reading a 748 page online book about the Mk Ultra Monarch program.

It is the craziest stuff I've ever read. It makes some far out claims. Mostly about how all these celebrities and politicians are part of this secret CIA operation that is actually the illuminati and giving people multiple personality disorder on purpose so that they can program the different personalities for their own sick evil desires. It's horrible.

What's funny is that in one paragraph it mentions Joseph Smith and his love of the occult and how he would search for gold with his seer stone (illuminati love gold, FYI). And it claimed that Joseph Smith came from an illuminati blood line. (All the presidents and important people have).

And then it mentioned that the Mormon temple in Portand or Seattle (can't remember) has a secret underground programming center where they make these mind controlled slaves. It claims they torture these people starting in the womb and then continue to torture them for the rest of their lives (but the slaves don't know because the programmers programmed personalities to guard the secrets).

Another mention of Mormons is near the end and claims Ezra Taft Benson was a satanist and the entire Mormon church is a front for the satanism of the leaders.

They were just brief mentions though. Billy Graham had nearly an entire chapter about him. He's apparently one of the worst of all.

Anyway, I read it as if it were fiction. But the guys who wrote it are very serious about it. They go into such detail. Just beyond crazy. I just don't see why the illuminati would go to such great lengths to make these monarch slaves. Each slave has different programming with cities built in their brains by the programmers. Alice in Wonderland, Wizard of Oz, Star Trek... All of this was made to remind the slaves of their purpose. Oh yeah, Walt Disney made all of his movies to reinforce the programming. In fact, any of us could be one of these slaves but there's no way to know since we've been programmed not to know.

I've rambled enough. Just wanted to mention the accusations against Mormons in the book.

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Posted by: greekgod ( )
Date: November 22, 2012 03:16AM

I'm somewhat familiar with these ideas. I don't believe..oh..roughly 70-80% of it. Why do I believe any of it? Because there are symbols in the music industry, movies, tv shows, clothing/fashion lines, paintings, that all are too strange to be coincidental. MK Ultra really happened. Who knows what else is going on?

I am starting to believe there is an powerful underground involved with sexual and physical abuse of young children, and that these individuals are very deep into occult symbols and rituals.

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Posted by: enoughenoch19 ( )
Date: November 22, 2012 03:45AM

JS was a closet occultist (no so closetish as he thought though). Notice that the pantagram in not just there, but it is the upside down one, (one point on the bottom) instead of two.
Check this out:

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Posted by: Exmogal ( )
Date: November 22, 2012 04:46AM

Remember when there was a ring of strange child abuse going on in Utah and Elder Pace issued a memo, which was discovered by the Tanners on their website, confirming it? Makes you wonder...

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Posted by: justrob ( )
Date: November 22, 2012 09:24AM

Me thinks someone only read the title of the post, not any of its content ;)

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