So you've realized that the history and doctrine of the LDS church are a mess. But you know, or knew it was true because you received a strong testimony through the Holy Ghost. How do you explain that?

Ask yourself some pointed questions about the Holy Ghost:

- Where do you get the information or idea that the way to learn truth is by something labeled "the Holy Ghost"? (From the church’s scriptures...the thing you're praying about tells you to trust that its test is the true test, but you must find a way to know if this test is true before using it to test it...dizzy?)

- Why do you trust that this method is the right one? (Because you’re told that feelings are more powerful than facts...)

- What is the method for learning truth by the Holy Ghost? (a deep seated feeling, a burning in the bosom, pure knowledge pouring into the mind...)

- How do you know that these experiences (feelings) are not from inside of you? (good question...)

- Does the Holy Ghost testify and point as truthful doctrines which contradict Mormonism? For example, polytheism & paganism? (According to LDS theology, it cannot testify of falsehoods...)

- Have you heard of the Chakras?
The Hindus practice Chakra meditation, one of which is centered in the heart. I've seen descriptions of that where a Hindu describes the experience as, "A feeling of peace seemed to flow into me with a sense of togetherness...I felt very peaceful from inside and also felt heat.”

(see http://www.siddha-loka.org/newsletter2010.html )

And this description among many many that show the "burning of the bosom" is actually more intense among some Hindu practioners.

" Often there is heat focused in this area when the chakra is awakening. This may feel like a warm, glowing sensation or a feeling of incandescence, with the chest blazing hot as a furnace."

"for example I feel my heart chakra (on average) a foot extending out from my chest (front and back) and about the size of a basketball. "

"I have had a warming sensation in the middle of my chest for the past two days. "

(See http://chakratribe.tribe.net/thread/affb5132-004c-4ca3-993c-5100fc50e99c )

From there, get into a dialogue about other cultures and religious systems which have these same experiences and signs and miracles. Just like the Mormons, the Hindus have the chakras, some of which have manifestations of elation, lifting and pure knowledge while meditating. For example, during mediation/mantra recitation (prayer), a flame is felt inside of the heart (part of the heart chakra), from which the mantra rings out; and this cooperates with the brow and crown (mind) chakras for realizing the "Clear Light".

Islam has the "hajj experience" and Islamic transformation that are essentially just as strong or more than the Mormon burning, as exampled by those who feel so emboldened as to commit suicide for their testimony.

Other Christian churches have spiritual manifestations in feelings, tongues and miracles.

Here's a list of many experiences which come from many religions and sound like the claims Mormons make about the spirit:

http://www.theamateurthinker.com/2011/02/how-can-we-find-truth-part-4/

How can anyone claim all these witnesses are false and Mormons, who make up barely 0.2% of the world's population, are so much better? All these deeply felt spiritual manifestations are claimed to testify that each belief is true. A spectrum of beliefs that are often contrary to the others at fundamental levels (monotheism vs. polytheism). Is this the truth meter pointing in all directions?

But still, you relied on the Holy Ghost to be the Mormon Truth Meter. Do you really remember it being that reliable, even as a strong member?

According to the LDS leaders, it's not the facts, folks, that give truth. It's the spirit.

Boyd K Packer said it's a poor meter though.
http://lds.org/ensign/1983/01/the-candle-of-the-lord?lang=eng
--
"We Can Be Deceived"
"Be ever on guard lest you be deceived by inspiration from an unworthy source. You can be given false spiritual messages. There are counterfeit spirits just as there are counterfeit angels. (See Moro. 7:17.) Be careful lest you be deceived, for the devil may come disguised as an angel of light.

"The spiritual part of us and the emotional part of us are so closely linked that is possible to mistake an emotional impulse for something spiritual. We occasionally find people who receive what they assume to be spiritual promptings from God, when those promptings are either centered in the emotions or are from the adversary."
--

In other words, the most important way to LDS in finding the truth (the "spirit") is so easily deceptive, you haven't a freaking chance at finding the truth. It could be god, or it could be satan, or it could be emotions. And how do you tell the difference? LDS leaders never really say. Sounds like a cop out. At least Packer got it right: it's a bad meter to use for discerning truth. The rest of us know, simple facts do just fine.

What about science? Science has been showing many ways to mimic these spirit effects.

There's the god helmet (though some have failed to duplicate Persinger's results, so take it with a grain of salt):

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/7.11/persinger.html

Here, when the right hemisphere of the brain, the seat of emotion, is stimulated by electromagnetic fields in the cerebral region (presumed to control notions of self), one often senses another presence. Some subjects actually see a personage. What occurs is that the field across the right hemisphere is being interpreted by the left hemisphere (the seat of language) to make sense of a nonexistent entity. This results in the mind generating a "sensed presence" like an angel or god.

Research by the Templeton foundation (a religious org), which have done very careful studies to see if prayer can elicit a great statistical average of medical recovery/healing than controls. They did not.

http://www.templeton.org/newsroom/press_releases/060407step.html

Such that, if the evidence suggests simple prayer is completely ineffective, then one should ask "why does god hate amputees?" If you believe god heal colds, cancer and cankers, how do you explain that he never heals an amputee?

It's the most valid question to ask on the subject of miracles.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

If such strong feelings and visions can testify of such diverse and opposing beliefs, how can you trust them?

For that matter, food can alter mood, and medical science routinely alters mood, perception and even the experience of reality with drugs ranging from prozac to LSD. It doesn't require pharmacology to alter perceptions. Mental illness, brain injury or even just depression does it often without the victim's awareness. How can you believe or trust your feelings to tell you any truth?

No, spiritual experience based on warm chests and stupid thoughts are not truth meters.

There is more research on bosom-burning, called "elevation" here:

Thomas Jefferson noted that uplifting stories cause a visceral reaction: They “dilate [the reader's] breast, and elevate his sentiments as much as any similar incident which real history can furnish.” (1) Only in the last year has any empirical evidence for elevation been published, demonstrating that moral elevation motivates people to emulate role models, do good deeds, and become more interested in relationships (2). In the strongest behavioral finding, moral elevation caused lactating women to hug and nurse their infants (3), suggesting the possible involvement of the hormone oxytocin. Something really is going on in the breast, although of course Jefferson was referring to the chest cavity more generally. Moral elevation has been defined as the emotional response to moral beauty. (by J. Haidt)

1 - Jefferson T (1975) in The Portable Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Robert Skipwith, ed Peterson MD (Penguin, New York), pp 349–351.
2 - Algoe SB, Haidt J (2009) Witnessing excellence in action: The “other-praising” emotions of elevation, gratitude, and admiration. J Positive Psychol 4:105–127. CrossRef
3 - Silvers J, Haidt J (2008) Moral elevation causes lactation. Emotion 8:291–295. CrossRefMedlineWeb of Science

See this for more:
http://people.virginia.edu/~jdh6n/elevation.html

It's interesting to note that oxytocin is involved in the emotional program behind "bonding". Women secrete it more often, during intimacy and breast-feeding. Whomever you are with while secreting it, you tend to trust and bond with. And oxytocin is implicated in elevated mood as well. Apparently, certain activities such as socializing, meditating and just engaging in excitement can cause oxytocin to release.

Opposed to this is testosterone, which creates individual self-security and even aggression towards those invading one's space. It does not elicit trust of others. And yet, those who lack testosterone are particularly susceptible to those with it. It would seem that to mix a little oxytocin with the less secure individual and place them with a person of moderate testosterone (and self-assurance), and you develop a strengthened "trust" from the one to the other needing security and assurance.

This could help explain why religious practice (eliciting oxytocin via moral elevation) produces strong attachments to charismatic leaders (of moderately high, but not aggressive levels of testosterone).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2012 02:14PM by Jesus Smith.

This is worth reading over and over, and sharing. Thanks for posting it!

This topic can't be complete without mention of Paul Dunn. He's a perfect example that it's an internal emotional experience, not an external spiritual one.

from junior high on.

TSCC teaches this falsehood, and our xstian culture reinforces it as well. Foolish traditions make us stupid, and willing to accept absurd ideas as valid explanations.

I have mostly negative feelings from seizures, but once in a while I have the most incredible feeling of well-being, and peace. It can last quite some time, and has nothing to do with religion or mythical beings. Religion is always trying to repackage, and resell normal life experiences back to us. We really have no excuse for superstitious explanations, because now we can learn the real ones through scientific study.

More science is always a good response to religious nonsense.

I can't imagine how strongly the holy ghost must testify to those poor suicide bombers when they ask whether to push the button or not.

Derren Brown's latest show, fear and faith(part 2) - aired last friday night in the UK - took an avowed atheist [a scientist who just happens to work in stem cell research] and induced in her, a profound spiritual experience.

he sat and chatted with the girl for about 15 minutes.... never mentioning god or religion.... and left her sitting alone. after he left, she stood up and felt an overwhelming love and acceptance, which left her crying and profoundly moved. she described it as an intense devotional spiritual experience.

he explained the steps he used to 'program' this sort of reaction and explained that this sort of conditioning is common in religious conversion.

I notice that the previous episode (fear and faith part 1 - about placebo medicines) is on youtube, so this one may be available in a few days

EssexExMo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Derren Brown's latest show, fear and faith(part 2)
> - aired last friday night in the UK - took an
> avowed atheist and induced in her, a profound
> spiritual experience.

Here it is. Thanks for letting us know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LksVbHxLRvY

Such a calculated method to introduce an overwhelming experience... I couldn't help but feel he'd kind of violated her in some way, even though he explained later what he'd done.

But, wow, that's fascinating stuff. The more I learn about how the mind works, the more I see that we're easily emotionally manipulated, and the more I understand religion.

Jesus Smith Wrote:

> --
> "We Can Be Deceived"
> "Be ever on guard lest you be deceived by
> inspiration from an unworthy source. You can be
> given false spiritual messages. There are
> counterfeit spirits just as there are counterfeit
> angels. (See Moro. 7:17.) Be careful lest you be
> deceived, for the devil may come disguised as an
> angel of light.
>
> "The spiritual part of us and the emotional part
> of us are so closely linked that is possible to
> mistake an emotional impulse for something
> spiritual. We occasionally find people who receive
> what they assume to be spiritual promptings from
> God, when those promptings are either centered in
> the emotions or are from the adversary."


So they're on record as stating that Moroni's promise is a) in no way reliable and b) any positive confirmations of the BOM's "truthfulness" might be from satan, or oneself.

Hmmmmmmmm. Why do mormons keep insisting this is how they "know"? The way I see it, they're basing their absolute "knowledge" on a 33.3% chance, even by the church's own admission. Less, when one considers that they're not the only ones getting these "spiritual" responses.

Great post by the way. Saving this one.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2012 05:07PM by Mormoney.

Thanks for posting!

I think that Satan and the Holy Ghost are equal. They are brothers, both are spirit, and both can project the same feelings. The spirt makes me feel good or bad. Personally I think I make my self feel good or bad. Any how, wouldn't satan also make us feel good to get his way? He could lead us all the way back to god then say that he did it and not the holy ghost. Therefor he wins. Well he would have to give some credit back to JC for bringing us back from death, but not for sin because he kept us from it. Its scarry but I am thinking more an more that when the lights go out thats the end, so why wast your time dwelling on it. Do what is good for your self and for others so that you will be remembered for it, or then again I don't need to worry about that either so just do stuff that keeps you happy and gay ;)

This was a big issue for me, because I had a lot of what I considered to be spiritual experiences or spiritual confirmations of the truth of Mormonism. I wondered how I could just explain these experiences away. What helped me were the things that have already been discussed, but also two other things that for me really clinched it.

First was the realization that within the church there were lots of people who had strong testimonies of this or that point of doctrine while others did not or had a testimony of the opposite idea to the first group. And sometimes what people of one generation had a strong testimony of, a few generations later people are saying "I don't know that we teach that". Some might say that those who don't have testimonies of what they have testimonies of are obviously deceived, but that obviously just sets each individual up as their own god/arbiter of truth. If I treated everyone or at least most people who had such testimonies as equally valid, there was obviously a big problem. How can the spirit be so inconsistent? Unless the real source of the testimonies is something else.

The other point relates to the uncertainty and unreliability of the spirit as a source of truth, discussed by some above. I realized that the ultimate rule set up by church leaders to measure what spiritual manifestations were correct or not ended up being whatever the Brethren teach at a given time, thereby placing humans above god as the arbiter of truth. And the Brethren themselves can't agree on many things. Take evolution, for example. Some apostles have been vehement in their position that evolution is false and impossible to reconcile with the doctrines of the Fall and the atonement, while others don't take such a hard line. I had difficulty accepting such an uncertain standard for measuring things.

I really like this information.

I have also thought that there is an interesting parallel between the "testifying of the Holy Ghost" emotions where someone feels that burning or emotional response and the emotional response that people feel when lying. Think about the idea of a lie detector and realize that it is measuring our body changing conditions due to the emotional feeling we have when we lie. Our heart races faster, your face flushes and turns red, your eyes dilate, and people often get scared and choked up.

People have so many emotions and reactions to lies...but it is ironic how they are many of the same ones they claim for recognizing truth.

Add that the feeling radiates to your left arm and/neck with shortness of breath and you are describing symptoms of a myocardial infarction - heart attack

The hardest thing I ever had to do was admit that I was delusional. I led a small "restoration church" and received revelations. I was PS&R. I did not lie as at the time I thought god spoke to and through me. I don't think I was insane, but do know I deluded myself.

Wow! Feel free not to, but if you are comfortable talking about it, I'd love to know more.

Hi,I published a biography on site, but don't remember how I titled it and can't find it. It is probably authored by "slatheredtwice", which is my register user name.

I found the url: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?3,261192



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2012 05:00PM by slatheredtwice.

Holy cow! That's both awesome & disturbing.
I would also love to hear more about your story.

On whether sociopathy and narcissism are "nature or nurture" (I'm in the latter camp). This information about oxytocin/testosterone does offer a reasonable scientific hypothesis as an explanation for the physiological basis of such matters...

I'm going to reserve judgment (pending consultation with my sister; JS knows her credentials), but my psychology background tells me there's nothing inconsistent with a "cognitive framework" that people create in response to physiological events, i.e. a constellation of beliefs that "accommodate" such an experience...

The literature on that subject is extensive; most cite William James' "The Varieties of Religious Experience" as one of the earlier efforts to apply Western scientific thinking to the matter. Carl Jung is another, and there does exist a loose "School of Moral Psychology" that can be seen as focusing on the "pragmatic applications of spirituality."

I may have more to say later (or at one of those top secret lunches held irregularly behind the Zion Curtain); right now I'm going to switch to Zen mode...

First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is...

The problems of going by "feelings" is not limited to Mormons. If you saw how our judicial system is working, you would be horrified. I am an attorney and I have seen it. Judges often ignore physical evidence and go by their "feelings" as to who is telling the truth. Real truth is ignored and injustice takes its place. I will write a book, entitled: Testing Truth after my present project.

It should be noted that in the Apocrypha we are warned not to give much heed to dreams and visions. JS warned about reading the Apocrypha because much of the wisdom is contrary to his teaching except for items he took directly from it, like part of First Nephi from the Book of Judith.

It's always amazing to me how people select their source of ultimate truth.

Christians point to the Bible, but if you ask them WHY that book is truthful, they cannot give you any real answer.

Mormons point to gut feelings, but if you ask them WHY that's the most important, they point you to a scripture (isn't that scripture less important than my feelings?)

If you ask an atheist what's most important (most don't like to use the term "truth") we tend to point to observation, selfishness + mutual benefit, or the overall good of the world/future.

...but if we're in the Matrix, we're all screwed. Best enjoy the illusion :-)

After writing this thread yesterday, I was interested to see how the church might apply the "relaying the spirit" in missionary work.

I found the missionary manual at LDSinc's website and read parts. Amazed at how openly manipulative they are and teach missionaries to be.

See the thread "The manipulation of 18 year olds (and teaching to manipulate), straight from the LDS manual "

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,712734

Which has a quote from Holland: "take control of this situation. Teach with power and authority, and then be devastated if the first steps toward commandment-keeping and covenant-keeping have not been successfully begun"

After being given one too much scopolamine patch during my recent hospitalization,...

I KNOW THE CHURCH IS TRUE!!!

Or, at least, I think so...