All you busy folks "filled" the Viking poo thread so fast, us Islanders didn't have a chance to post. So, here goes:

Poo is actually a big deal in archaeology. Then absence of poo is one of the biggest proofs that the BOM is false.

The BOM claims that the Nephites had a "horse culture". A horse culture necessarily generates a thousand types of artifacts and vast piles of crap of every kind, all based around horses and the human use of horses.

Just for a few examples:

Saddles, ropes, harness, buggies and wagons and yes, chariots!

Horse paths, roads and highways for horse-drawn vehicles. Factories to make vehicles, and quarries and machines needed for road building.

Smithies, forges, mining, smelting etc. for needed ores and alloys to manufacture durable tools and implements for horse care and management. Horse armor, and armories to make and store metal plate armor for war horses.

Fields of horse feed in the farms, granaries for horse feed, troughs for feed and water. Hitching posts, stalls, barns, and even vast stables to house the stock of the powerful. Leathercraft, haircraft, tanneries, rendering plants, bone meal factories, to deal with the dead horses. And pits for horse burials, filled with horse remains!

Cattle ranches, cuz the Nephites had cattle, and the horses needed to tend them. So there would have been vast cattle ranches, existing up until today, and the Nephites would have subsisted primarily upon beef and horse meat as their main protein source. Ergo, there would be every artifact needed for cattle ranching, meat processing, secondary cattle products, etc.. The entire landscape would be altered to practice the ranching culture, just as we see in Mexico today.

Artworks (some made out of horse bone) of every kind depicting the horse, and man with horse.

So intimate would the Nephites have been with the horse, that the bodies of the dead Nephites would yield evidences of horse parasites, and human diseases and deaths caused by breathing and drinking fine particles of horse dusts.

And of course, the POO! There would be horse and cattle poo everywhere, covering the land of Mexico (or wherever Mos may think the Nephites hung out). In large, long-time stables, such as for the nobility and ruling classes, the remains of which themselves should still be evident upon the urban landscape, there would be layers and piles of poo so wide and deep, they would be easy to find by archaeologists today. And more poo would have filled the streets wherever horses passed by, and it would have been spread upon the agricultural fields in great quantities that would be easy to find in every farm even today.


Etc. etc., you get the picture. The presence of a horse (and cattle) culture is such an all-pervasive phenomenon, one which changes a landscape so completely, that we should find massive piles of artifacts and evidences lying literally everywhere in Nephite country today.

Is any such evidence of an Nephite-American pre-Columbian horse culture found upon the land today? All the people say, "Neeiigh!".

Thanks Hello for piling on and continuing to stir the muck that is the lack of Nephite poo! I think it is easy for the average person to get lost in all the highly technical talk about DNA evidences, but everyone poops! What I think people don't realize is how long lasting it can be in the environment or how much can be learned about ancient cultures by examining their excrement.

Thank you, helemon!

What is so amazing, is that the Mos of the southwest US are themselves derived from a horse culture, and have been intimate with horses for generations, and many Mos still continue to practice horse culture to this very day. And yet, these good ranchers and children of ranchers just blink and look away, if they are ever confronted with the lack of a BOM horse culture in the archaeological record of America.

Have you asked them how much hay the Jaredites would have needed to pack in their boats to feed the livestock they brought with them? Or how much crap said animals would produce in a nearly year long journey?

I am also surprised that people who make a living working with animals and crops that have been selected and bred to have certain desirable traits can at the same time deny the process of natural selection.

helemon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Have you asked them how much hay the Jaredites
> would have needed to pack in their boats to feed
> the livestock they brought with them? Or how much
> crap said animals would produce in a nearly year
> long journey?"

ya foreal! Drrr duh drrr drrr, DRRR!

>
> I am also surprised that people who make a living
> working with animals and crops that have been
> selected and bred to have certain desirable traits
> can at the same time deny the process of natural
> selection."

ya drrr! Darwin rolls eyes...

I thought of something else related to animal husbandry, poo, and diseases. Due to Europe's long history of raising and living with animals allowed them to develop resistance to various diseases that passed from animals to humans. The reason Native Americans were wiped out by European disease is because they had no natural immunity to these diseases. If Native Americans had been raising flocks as described in the BoM then they too would have built up immunity to various animal borne diseases. Since the animals originated in the Old World I would assume that their diseases would be similar if not identical to the European diseases. If the diseases had diverged sufficiently from the European varieties then I would expect that the Europeans would have died from Native American disease with similarly high percentages as Native Americans did to European diseases. Since they did not it seems clear that Native Americans did not engage in animal husbandry to any significant degree.

Excellent discussion, helemon. Great point! :)

Zoonotic diseases jump from other species to humans.

Measles, small pox and typhus are not zoonotic.

Chicken pox, while it exists in some primates, is not zoonotic.

Anthrax and bubonic plague (yersinia pestis) are zoonotic.

Hanta Virus, carried by rodents, (rodents don't get hanta but they do carry it), is not zoonotic; although it is believed to have possibly existed in Europe in the 15th century...

So, it looks like Native Americans were killed by, mostly, non-zoonotic diseases...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 09:42PM by John_Lyle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowpox
"Cowpox is a skin disease caused by a virus known as the cowpox virus. The pox is related to the vaccinia virus and got its name from the distribution of the disease when dairymaids touched the udders of infected cows.[1] The ailment manifests itself in the form of red blisters, and is transmitted by touch from infected animals to humans. Cowpox is similar to but much milder than the highly contagious and sometimes deadly smallpox disease.[1] It resembles mild smallpox, and was the basis of the first smallpox vaccines. When the patient recovers from cowpox, the person is immune to smallpox."

"it wasn’t just the increased proximity to animals themselves but the way our farming and herding ancestors manipulated the immediate environment to support their livestock and additional crops. The way they modified the land for their use altered the “transmission ecology” for disease. Issues regarding animal and human waste, food and water sources likely figured into the equation. Changes in the environment and the introduction of livestock also altered these humans’ indirect interaction with wildlife.

Today, approximately 60% of new human pathogens are acquired from animal sources, and more than 70% of those are based in wildlife. With our species’ continuing movement into new wild habitats, we expose ourselves to the unique pathogens that exist there. Just as our agricultural ancestors interacted and manipulated the land in new ways, we continue to do so today. Humanity’s pathogenic web keeps growing.

Read more: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-origin-of-human-infectious-disease/#ixzz2I6nhcKl0";

They ate kelp...

Oh, that can't be right, kelp only grows near the coast...

Did people in BoM times suffer from tetnus?

One of the main sources of Clostridium tetani is horse manure...

That's a good question, John. I wonder if any lab works have been done on ancient Mayan (or other Native American) corpses, if any, to determine their health and cause of death? Admittedly, pretty sophisticated stuff.

With a horse culture, there would have to have been tetanus everywhere. I'd think that the bacillus would be found in soil layers dated to BOM times.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2013 04:36AM by hello.

C. Tetani is an endospore, which means it can be dormant a long time... The endospores, if they existed, might still be there...

Of course, since this whole thing is BS, they would have to be magic BoM endospores that only in the BoM...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 09:51PM by John_Lyle.

BTW, those following the "Paisley Cave" coprolite history (it ties in with actual Native American migrations), be wary... There's still lots of contention out there despite what the salesmen say...

Ah, hahaha, the phrase, "absence of poo" made me laugh out loud.
I love RFM.

Holmes: Is there really an absence of evidence for Jewish-Indian aboriginals in America?

Watson: No sh1t, Sherlock.

The reason I won't eat "ranch flavor" anything. I know what everything on a ranch looks like, smells like, tastes like...

See, our planet's Heavenly Father brokered a trade with one of His Heavenly-Father-on-another-planet bros. They're tight like that. Earthly Heavenly Father bartered all the poo and remnants-of-poo for the other guy's dinosaur bones. The RfM board on that planet has regular threads about the origin of all that $#!+.