I just realized it is a miracle (seriously) that Mormon apologists keep their faith.

The Anointed One just had to do their research and he was out.

I used to be perplexed why Tom bolted after a "Second Anointing" but now it makes perfect sense. I just had to compare what he has written with what Mormon apologists have written.

It is indeed marvelous that Mormon apologists keep their faith. Aliens is a better explanation than God, The Father and His Only Begotten...

Other will call it irrationality instead of miraculous. I know.

It's because Tom has incredibly integrity. Regardless of personal sacrifice, Tom goes where truth resides. Apologists are about self image and hoisting self-importance. That is a hard one for many of us raised in the mormon church. I struggle with it still. Image aligned to church is first, above family, friends and career. Apologists are trying to create their image directly in the church form. Tom just had a sincere desire to be a good, honest, helpful person. He's also too smart not to figure it out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 12:52PM by Jesus Smith.

I think it takes a very "special" kind of personality to be a Mormon apologist.

They have to be "Miss the forest for the trees" type people.

They have to be the type of people that can never be wrong - more worried about winning the argument than finding the true answer.

I find Jeff Lindsay http://www.jefflindsay.com/ to be a great example. The guy is amazing at arguing that he is in a desert. He goes down amazingly detailed red herring rabbit holes. The guy is adept at arguing - you say this a tree, but here's pages and pages of arguments that it might really be a cactus...

Also these shed light on apologists:
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon441.htm

http://www.michaelshermer.com/weird-things/excerpt/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EReUoXIesMI&feature=youtu.be



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 01:17PM by bc.

bc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> you say this a tree, but here's
> pages and pages of arguments that it might really
> be a cactus...

when you compare the writings of thoughtful people who leave the church against the apologists defending the church, it is quite easy to see which side has integrity. It takes courage to do what Tom did. The apologists don't have it.

danboyle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The apologists don't have it.

Daniel Peterson doing pompus is to die for!!!

What if an apologist believes that he is offering explanations which help people stay in the church even after they know it has not told the truth or that it is based on lies.

Let's say he honestly believes he is doing the right thing--that the church is a good experience for families, does humanitarian aid, and is better organized than a lot of churches.

He sees himself as keeping families from breaking up. He knows it is false, but it is his culture, so he helps others to maintain the traditions of their ancestors.

Is he without integrity keeping people from getting divorced? Isn't this a higher, nobler function than black and white "just the facts, ma'am" thinking?

Perhaps he is living in the present and performing compassionate service in his mind by finding a way to "explain" scientific contradictions to church pronouncements in a way that the uneducated will believe makes sense.

Many members just say, "The experts have answers for that and I am busy enough with my own salvation."

I have a feeling that the apologist sees himself as performing a valuable service to humanity. After all, Christianity is based on the teachings of Paul, who never met Jesus and who was a persecutor of Christians. How is that different from Joseph Smith, who was a conman before?


Anagrammy (Stan's advocate..LOL)

Having had a few run ins with apologists, each time I see them excusing and rationalizing the problems with very indirect paths, round-about explanations and by dismissing what prophets have said in the past. When their techniques are pointed out, they deny that they are dissing the prophets or rationalizing because they have far superior knowledge.

If they had integrity, which is holding hands with humility, they would be able to acknowledge that their excuses are not very secure and are dismissive of the church leaders. For them, pride is more important than integrity.

>If they had integrity, which is holding hands with humility, they would be able to acknowledge that their excuses are not very secure and are dismissive of the church leaders. For them, pride is more important than integrity.

It's pure ego. They can't stand the thought of someone telling them they're wrong. To them, being wrong is the worst thing in the world, so they lawyer every point and spin-doctor the rest.

I think it is very clear why GAs, mission presidents and apologists don't lose their faith ------- Its All About the Money, prestige and Retirement. If you haven't noticed getting a good job is not that easy anymore ---- especially in Utah. If you have over 10 years of working for the church it is not that easy to give up your job and get another one in Utah with similar pay and benefits. The love of money is not only the root of all evil ------ in LD$ inc. it is worth lying for the Lord (mormon god of course) if it benefits your family! Some of us are still attending (not necessarily paying tithes) because of family and social issues I just wonder how many like lds educators, etc. are TBM for the money.

He mentioned "Second Anointing."

I think Tom can claim a "famous" Mormon apologist in his Internet postings and efforts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1dj_ErETxM

I think it probably really rubs Kerry wrong that a person who did no research into the super sacredness of Mormonism gets the "calling and election" made sure while a struggling apologist is probably seen as a nut.

Sorta like how for a long time, every "Church Historian" ended up going apostate. HMMMmmmm....if you take the time and actually study the history, it seems inevitable you'll stumble across the stinky truths.

...but he did have an opportunity very few others have. Most Mormons feel like things will become clearer once they jump through the next hoop. Its like a drug addiction. Maybe once I'm ordained an Elder it will become clear. Maybe once I go to the temple the facsimiles will make sense. Once I get sealed maybe the Holy Ghost will speak to me...Once I endure a little longer....

Tom is one of the few people who had the chance to jump through Mormonism's final hoop to see that nothing was on the other side. If he had never jumped through that hoop, would he have figured it out? Or would he be like thousands of others hoping the great revelation would eventually come after just a bit more sacrifice.

A good answer to why apologists keep their faith is that they are generally paid to defend the church and its doctrines. Nibley's daughter maintained this, too. I don't know how much of what she said is actually true, but I have no doubt in my mind at all the Hugh Nibley just pulled stuff from his arse. He made up so-called "facts," and nobody dared challenge him. And in order to defend the Book of Mormon as he did, one WOULD have to make up stuff. I think it was Nibley that started all that bullshit about "chiasmus" being proof of its devine origin.

I can't even compare myself to Tom. I never was as faithful to it as he, nor did I gain higher positions as he did.

But I can claim that it is my integrity that made me leave. I can't live a lie. These apologists are not men of integrity. They are paid liars, and I can't stand them or see how they stand themselves. If on the other hand, they really believe, it only proves the depths to which one can delude ones' self. Someone so deluded even after delving deep into history has to have their intelligence questioned. I think they know the truth and are lying.