For those who have been following and helping with this (bc). After I sent the email giving facts on all those issues, this was the response. (Obviously he's not changing his mind, but it was cc'd to other family members, so I'm hoping it will provoke questions in someone's mind.
Another side note to this, FIL now has been calling husband at work when I'm not around and said that he wants to speak with husband WITHOUT me there....

Dear Husband,


I finally got to read dogeatdog's dissertation this morning in the office. She is very good at searching out information. She obviously loves to debate. She appears to be very good at "fact finding." She also is very good at finding things to criticize. Unfortunately I cannot respond to much of it. Obviously I am NOT as smart as she is,[THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP!] but there are things I know are right and true. Some of this has come by study, and much has come from God through the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. I confess there are also many things I DO NOT KNOW about. So, although I may be further enlightened in the future, at least allow me to tell you where I am right now. Let me also say that at this point, I addressed this letter to you with the knowledge and likelihood that dogeatdog will read it as well. However, she is driven by "factual" information, and hopefully you will see more of a spiritual dimension to most of what I have to say.



Here is what I DO NOT know:



1. I do NOT know exactly what happened when Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham.

2. I do NOT know all the events surrounding the practice of polygamy, or the timing, or understand all the reasons why the Lord introduced it to Joseph.

3. I do NOT know why there is no modern day science to credibly refute the "evidence" that neither wheat nor horses were around when the BOM was suppose to have been written.

4. I do NOT know why we cannot find evidence of the Temple Nephi built in his day. I can guess.

5. I do NOT know how the earth and all of God's creations were made, so I do not know why there appears to be so much misunderstanding about the age of the earth before Adam.

6. I do NOT know why there seems to be modern day "evidence" to refute the age of the earth (according to the Bible).

7. I do NOT know why you are bothered by how the leaders of the Church appropriate funds.

8. I do NOT know how you can confuse emotion with the promptings of the Holy Ghost.

9. I do NOT know why you have chosen to stop reading the scriptures, or going to church, or pay tithing, or praying more regularly...


10. I do NOT know why you question your mother and me regarding things that matter most to us.



So, here is what I DO KNOW... FOR SURE:



1. I KNOW the Book of Abraham is the Word of God.

2. I KNOW Joseph Smith was and is a true Prophet of God.

3. I KNOW polygamy will one day be reintroduced to God's people.

4. I KNOW the Book of Mormon is the Word of God in spite of not being able to prove the existence of horses and wheat in America back then. REALLY?

5. I KNOW Nephi did, in fact, REALLY EXIST and did, in fact, build a Temple to God.

6. I KNOW the earth exists, and one day we will understand all the hows and whys and wherefores of God's creations.

7. I KNOW Thomas S. Monson and the 12 Apostles are Prophets, Seers, and Revelators in the one and only true Church of God today.

8. I KNOW the Holy Ghost is the source of all truth and light and knowledge.

9. I KNOW if you will read the Book of Mormon with a sincere heart, with real intent, with faith in Christ, YOU will KNOW it is TRUE.

10. I KNOW both Mom and I love you, and will always love you no matter what.

I'm going to close with some words of great WISDOM from very good sources, but first a comment about dogeatdog's reference to me being ridiculous and hypocritical.
Since I prefer to follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost, and not man's limited knowledge and experience, I guess she can call me ridiculous and hypocritical. That would be because she lacks wisdom. Here's why: Wisdom is a gift of the Spirit; it comes from God by revelation. The course of wisdom is the course of obedience; there is no wisdom in wickedness. Here is a direct quote from Bruce R. McConkie:

"The wisdom of the world results from the uninspired reflections, research, and discoveries of men. It is composed of
partial and fragmentary truths mixed with error. Theorizing and hypothecating commonly accompany it. This type of
wisdom includes the philosophies of learning of men which are destructive of faith... Scientific theories change with every
new discovery, but the wisdom revealed from God is eternal truth."

Here's what our friend Nephi has to say on the subject:

"O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned
they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel if God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of
themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish. But to be learned
is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God" (2 Nephi 9:28-29).

One more from our friend Nephi (who does not exist, but is only a fictitious character of someones dreams):

"Forasmuch as this people draw near unto me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their
hearts far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precepts of men - Therefore, I will proceed to do a marvel-
ous work among this people, yea, a marvelous work and a wonder, for the wisdom of their wise and learned shall perish,
and the understanding of their prudent shall be hid" ( 2 Nephi 27:25-26).

My prayer is that you, husband, my son, will think long and hard about all of this. I pray these words will sink deep into your heart. And I pray someday, before it is too late, that you will repent and turn once again to our Savior Jesus Christ and His true Church.

Love,
Dad



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 06:24PM by dogeatdog.

It usually takes a crack in someone's armor before they're willing to look at real evidence. You may have dented it, but no crack...

Hopefully you're not also stirring up bad feelings. Mormons identify with their religion to the point that questioning it is questioning them.

Yes, that has become quite clear in this case.

Stalemate!

That's the best you could hope for. In fact he grudgingly just gave you some respect - while also taking a pot shot at you - he just backed off and admitted he can't win the argument - which is a 180 degree turn around from the superior, smug "I know all the facts and you don't know anything" approach of his from before.

And finally you backed him in the corner that all he has is his stubborn belief.

----

Now I would respond with something similar to the letter I first recommended using his own nasty language against him.

Basically send him something like this:

I know would like to send you some WISDOM.

"The only true wisdom is knowing you know nothing"
Socrates

If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, the foundation must be very weak.
- George Albert Smith, Journal of Discources, Volume 14, Page 216

The fictitious Nephi was just quoting Matthew 15:8 - further proof that Joseph Smith and not Nephi was the author:
"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me."

The interesting thing about the original passage in Matthew that Joseph Smith plagiarized from was Jesus critiquing the pharisees - a group of people, who very much like the Mormons were overly concerned about rules - things like which kind of caffeine keeps you out of the temple.

Now here's some great WISDOM I suggest we both adhere to.

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

So drop the self-righteousness and condescending attitude and instead RESPECT our right to believe what we believe. Please RESPECT that we have taken our decision seriously and not lightly.

...Then some of the other stuff I said about putting the relationship and love first... You can even begin to mend some of the wounds he's created with his nastiness... and you still get to look like the bigger person because he still hasn't been a big enough person to extend the olive branch...


----

At this point I think you have him right where you want him, he knows he can't bully prove anything and all he has left is his testimony and self-righteousness.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 07:00PM by bc.

I would also be tempted to send a list of things I know are right and true:

I KNOW it is not right to treat women as second class citizens and to be obedient to their husband instead of to God.

I KNOW it is not right to be racist and say that a people are less righteous because of the color of their skin.

I KNOW it is not right to consider myself to have a superior religious knowledge over every other religion on the earth.

I KNOW it is not right to campaign to take civil and human rights away from minorities.

I KNOW it is not right to teach blacks were less righteous in the pre-existence and not allow them to attend the temple or hold the priesthood until 1978.

I KNOW it is not right that secret signs and handshakes are the key to getting into heaven.

I KNOW it is not right to not allow family members to attend weddings based on their religious beliefs.

I KNOW it is not right for you to attempt to divide us in our marriage on our religious beliefs.

I KNOW it was wrong for you to carbon copy a whole bunch of people on a discussion that should have been private between us.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 08:22PM by bc.

Hee Hee Hee

Bwahahaha!

I'm still NOT GETTING over how his last pot shot, passive-aggressive quote of Nephi shows that Joseph Smith plagiarized the Bible!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 06:58PM by bc.

"Stalemate!
That's the best you could hope for. In fact he grudgingly just gave you some respect - while also taking a pot shot at you - he just backed off and admitted he can't win the argument - which is a 180 degree turn around from the superior, smug "I know all the facts and you don't know anything" approach of his from before.
And finally you backed him in the corner that all he has is his stubborn belief."

Exactly! There is no way I could've done it without your help either! Honestly, the information you gave me, and writing it clearly and concisely was what really drove the point home.

wow, i was going to send my parents a huge letter with all the issues in as well (got to like page 15 with just small summeries!)- but now i realise there is no hope i can see my dad writing that stuff :O| - so a simple "we don't belive anymore more back off and repsect it and we will do like wise" letter is what i will do instead. thanks for the tip!

Here's my original recommended letter to dogeatdog (but she convinced me she wanted to go this route, her FIL was using bullying tactics, etc.) I see the response she put together more as standing up to a bully than trying to convince him of anything:

Dear Dad:

I have read your letter and considered it seriously. The very first thing you said in your letter is that you are completely closed minded. You are completely unwilling to consider anything except what you believe. You then immediately go on to ask me to be open minded. This is both ridiculous and hypocritical. (Then the 2nd thing you did was to assert that husband lied about listening to the full podcast - then it went from there.)

Now I want to make something very clear to you. There is NOTHING ANYONE can say that can possibly change my conclusion about the Church, Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon or the leaders of the Church today - that it is false.

I have my reasons for firmly concluding this is the case that I believe are at least as valid as yours. So we are at an impasse. Neither of us is going to convince each other of anything.

So now the only decision we have left to make is to determine what we are going to do with our relationship. I recommend that we follow the 11th article of faith and respect one anothers' right to believe what we believe.

I could go through your email and counter each point you have made. And we can go back and forth and back and forth and just create higher and higher walls and harder and harder feelings.

I respect that you believe I am missing out on the truth and that it will negatively impact my life and eternity. However, I likewise feel that you are missing out on the truth and that it is negatively impacting your life.

With that said, can we agree to disagree? Can we agree to not preach to one another? Can you agree that I am an adult and I have the right to choose to live as I believe according to the dictates of my own conscience? Can you respect that I have not made this decision lightly and that I am truly following what I believe to be right?

In short, I'm extending the olive branch. I love you and I want to continue to have a loving relationship. Are you willing to do the same?

Love,
dogeatdog

very nicely put! you are becoming quite the goto person BC :)

Thanks :) Honestly it probably has a lot do with no one in my home wants to hear what I have to say, so I'm finding somewhere where what I have to say is valued and respected - at least by some.

That's unfortunate. You are full of sound reason. I can't imagine not wanting to hear it. Do you live with people who are not fond of reasoning?

I live with a house full of TBMs.

They will listen to me in other areas - it's frustrating because I'm feeling extremely displaced in my own home - their world revolves around Mormonism. Some recent discussions with my wife have significantly increased that feeling. Basically the deal is that since I "cheated" on her with porn I essentially have zero credibility in any aspect of the relationship with her. I know most of this is in my own head and that I am the one withdrawing.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 09:19PM by bc.

Cheated with porn.... maybe I am just too liberal... no scratch that.. perhaps I am reasonable... but cheating with porn? YOu better not watch TV either then.

I really feel for you. That has got to be really frustrating. I made my mistakes before i left my marriage, but I remember the frustration of feeling like you are either the only one not taking crazy pills, or maybe the one person who should be.

Perhaps my ability to sympathize has decreased as my knowledge and self respect has increased, but, I just can't but wonder how the hell they keep believing... what intellectual function is missing?

Then I remember, until 5 years ago, I was a morgbot. I married (and divorced finally) a many I never loved because he was the Morgbot my dad liked, and lived my entire life under the thought about "the afterlife".

I get it, but I just don't get it... you know?

dogeatdog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> she is driven by "factual" information, and hopefully you
> will see more of a spiritual dimension to most of
> what I have to say.


LOL Darn those facts. They get in the way every time.

My first response is, as your husband, he should be standing up for you. If my BF's father spoke to me like this... well, I can't imagine the outcome, but I know it would not be in his father's favor. I know, because his sister bad mouthed me one time (before she ever met me) and for this (and other reasons) they don't talk anymore.

I'm not advocating family alienation.... but this is over the line. He is your protector (not that it sounds like you need it.) I just know, I would be chewing my dad out if he spoke to my BF this way. Even though I know the whole "He is saying this because it is his way of showing love and care." Bull crap.

I know, it's really bothering me. I often feel that people who grow up in the Church are taught to 'respect' their parents - give them deference, not be able to tell them they are wrong, etc. I don't know if it stems from this or what but he does have a hard time standing up for me in this to his parents.
But basically, I feel like we should be 'honoring each other' in our marriage, and part of honoring each other is sticking up for each other when someone disrespects one or the other of us, and also not complaining about each other to the friends or family members in our lives, and rather talking about it to each other.
I'm obviously not indicating anyone on this board that complains about their TBM spouse because this is pretty anonymous and it is understandable that people need an outlet and understanding community in situations like that.

bc - I can't thank you enough for your help. I feel so bad that your family life is like that. You are so well researched, spoken, and organized that I can't imagine not listening to you if I was your wife, but obviously people put blinders on. I would really like to send him a list of 'what I know', but I do feel like this was at least a decent outcome and I don't know if I want to push it. Also, it's pretty clear that he's not liking me very much right now, and I don't want it to cause problems between me and my husbsand. I am fearful that they will be trying the divide and conquer approach. I don't really want them to try to manipulate my husband, although they likely try to prey on his guilt and duty to them as his parents when they "talk to him alone" on the phone...

I think you are very wise to stop now - you've done well - but it's fun to just follow up with some theoretical - "it would also be fun to say".

I'm very glad I was of help :) Hopefully the outcome in the long run is what you want. I'd guess at the very least you won't get any more condescending non-spiritual arguments from him.

Ironically, my wife has actually told me that much of the reason she doesn't want to hear what I have to say is that she knows I've done a lot of research and am articulate and that I would talk her into agreeing with me - whether what I am saying is true or not. Arg.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 11:06PM by bc.

"3. I KNOW polygamy will one day be reintroduced to God's people."

Wow! Maybe you should let your fil know that the church no longer teaches this (at least according to GBH).

I hope your hubby is on board with you and that the two of you talk about it first.

heres my suggestion


Here is what I DO NOT know:


>>>>These are easy to find out and know if you are simply willing to look and not cover your eyes.

1. I do NOT know exactly what happened when Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham.

2. I do NOT know all the events surrounding the practice of polygamy, or the timing, or understand all the reasons why the Lord introduced it to Joseph.

3. I do NOT know why there is no modern day science to credibly refute the "evidence" that neither wheat nor horses were around when the BOM was suppose to have been written.

4. I do NOT know why we cannot find evidence of the Temple Nephi built in his day. I can guess.

5. I do NOT know how the earth and all of God's creations were made, so I do not know why there appears to be so much misunderstanding about the age of the earth before Adam.

6. I do NOT know why there seems to be modern day "evidence" to refute the age of the earth (according to the Bible).


>>>>these you can simply find out by asking me and listening.

7. I do NOT know why you are bothered by how the leaders of the Church appropriate funds.

8. I do NOT know how you can confuse emotion with the promptings of the Holy Ghost.

9. I do NOT know why you have chosen to stop reading the scriptures, or going to church, or pay tithing, or praying more regularly...


10. I do NOT know why you question your mother and me regarding things that matter most to us.



So, here is what I DO KNOW... FOR SURE:

>>> Everything here you are basing on your feelings. You have felt the 'spirit' confirming to you that you know these things, you have not been able to find any 'facts' to support this other than your feelings. If I am wrong in that understanding please tell me how.

>>> regarding feelings, I know they can be felt when the information being shared is not true. Simple case in point, Paul H Dunn had awesome stories, I felt the 'Spirit' many times when he told them. turns out they were completely false. my 'spirit' was fooled by a good lier. Given that it could be fooled I think God gave us a mind for a reason, we should use it and not let it sit idle when checking facts.

>>> for me you have been a good father, ask yourself if you think a good father would really leave children without the slightest bit of testable evidence for this information?

1. I KNOW the Book of Abraham is the Word of God.
>>Except for the fact that experts don't confirm it.

2. I KNOW Joseph Smith was and is a true Prophet of God.
??so why did he lie about polygamy?

3. I KNOW polygamy will one day be reintroduced to God's people.
>>Why did GBH say on TV that this is behind us now, lets not talk about it?

4. I KNOW the Book of Mormon is the Word of God in spite of not being able to prove the existence of horses and wheat in America back then. REALLY?
>>or the fact that there are 2 million swords missing, how do you loose 2 million swords, oh and the wheel was gone.. too, and the list goes on and on...

5. I KNOW Nephi did, in fact, REALLY EXIST and did, in fact, build a Temple to God.
>>>Except for no evidence

6. I KNOW the earth exists, and one day we will understand all the hows and whys and wherefores of God's creations.
>>> the earth does exist, I will agree with you on that point ;D

7. I KNOW Thomas S. Monson and the 12 Apostles are Prophets, Seers, and Revelators in the one and only true Church of God today.
>>> why do they not declare new revelation then? JS created a whole book, do you really think God has nothing more to say?


8. I KNOW the Holy Ghost is the source of all truth and light and knowledge.
>>but it can be fooled by a good Paul H Dunn story

9. I KNOW if you will read the Book of Mormon with a sincere heart, with real intent, with faith in Christ, YOU will KNOW it is TRUE.
>>> if you try hard enough you can believe anything, you already assume this to be the case with other religions in the world... muslims, etc, etc

10. I KNOW both Mom and I love you, and will always love you no matter what.
>>> and I love you too, so much that I am willing to let you have your beliefs, are you willing to let me have mine?

might be a little harsh to hit them with this, you will have to gauge that.

You have some really great responses too. I think bc linked me to a letter of yours... (a really long one with references?) If it was yours, I used some lines in my response email about faith and spiritual confirmations, etc.