Can you imagine the reaction any non-believer might receive were they to tell an ardent believer…”I would hope that by the time your son reaches the age of 12 that you too will be able to sit quietly on the sidelines with me as unfamiliar men place their hands on your son’s head and maintain your composure as these men act like they are actually conferring some real super human magical powers on your son”.

Yet something similar to this actually happened to me this past weekend as my grandson was ordained a deacon in the Mormon Aaronic Priesthood

Being a non-believer in Utah and trying to navigate an authentic life among zealous adherents of Mormonism has its challenges…one of which is having to perform our high wire act and navigate the mine field that is require if we wish to maintain mutual respect with these Uber- TBM’s.

Yet it seems that these rules of mutual respect are actually a one way street where firm believers feel they can ignore boundaries because they perceive that they have a God given right to disrespect us whenever they get a tingly feeling in their bosom.

Some back ground: I’ve been out of the church for over 10 years. After years of hard work my wife and I have reached a place where we mutually respect each other…despite the fact that we fervently disagree with the other’s beliefs. We’ve agreed to disagree and still love each other for who we are. We find the good in each other. And I consider myself fortunate to have found this balance in my marriage.

Despite my personal feeling towards the church…part of being mutually respectful to my family means that I attend church functions of this type in a supportive role despite my personal feeling on the subject. It’s part of being respectful of their beliefs.

During the ordination I sat with the women and children as all the other men in the room collectively ordained my grandson to the office of a deacon.

As soon as the prayer had concluded…my grandson’s “other grandfather”, a good, well meaning, former Stake President approached me, put his arm around my shoulder and said. “Cr@ig I would hope that by the time our grandson becomes an Elder in 4 years, I will be able to place my hand on your shoulder in the circle as we both confer upon him the Melchizedek Priesthood”.

As if sitting quietly with the woman and children as a non-participant while my grandson is sucked further into Mormonism’s lies isn’t enough…now I have to be completely disrespected and bite my tongue to avoid publically embarrassing my wife as this well-meaning yet delusional man offends me by completely disregarding my non-belief.

I took the high road and simply smiled, thanked him for his thoughtfulness…and said “that’s not going to happen” and turned and walked away.

IMHO, it is giving into their delusions.

Marriage or no marriage, I don't see going to church with Mormon family or to attend special ordinances or other ceremonies is respectful, precisely because of what you've pointed out - it's a one way street with them! They don't respect us, and our choices. And their number one motivation is to reconvert us. Not to mention, they are a money-cult disguised as a religion.

I've tried to let my TBM family know that my not attending is directly related to my not being able to condone something that I believe is not only false but harmful. End of story.

Sorry, if this comes across as harsh because I do understand and empathize with you but have decided it's not worth showing up for their things because they take it as a possibility of us returning to their way of thinking and do not know how to respect boundaries most of the time.

I like how you have written about it, Craig. It's very poignant.

What the "other grandfather" said was completely inappropriate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2013 01:52PM by Makurosu.

Thank you for sharing. It is more difficult for men because of this priesthood fraternity hierarchy and seems to give adult men a way to inflict pain in a bullying manner. Your response was perfect and made it clear you were not interested.

It is not easy to take the high road when our personal lives and beliefs are belittled or bullied, as in this case you mentioned. Arrogant feelings of righteousness always did upset me when directed at me in a passive aggresive way.

Your grandson has two grandfathers and it is a shame the LDS doctrine divides families in this way. Your story hit home with me, and with all those who have stood 'outside'.

Quoting CA Girl here, "See that's why people don't like mormons", because their pretentious inane self-absorbing imps, that exist in a deluded world of fantasy.

I agree with exmod and CA Girl--"See that's why people don't like mormons."

Enjoy your posts and you are a hero to me but I refuse to validate any ordinances or "spiritually" laden functions with my kids after the one baptism I went to and watched.

I got the fallout this last weekend for not attending a Pat Blessing for my eldest.

I don't believe it so attending these things lends credence to my family's hope that I can be recovered to Mormonism.

Like you said, "that’s not going to happen."

I agree, Elder Berry. I also think the "high road" in this instance, for me, would include telling other granpa that he is being disrespectful of me and my cherished personal beliefs.

That said, I think what Craig did and said is fine, it's good and best for him, and it worked. I really don't mean to criticize you in any way, Craig, not at all. Just expressing an opinion, about myself.

That's not a fun situation. Sometimes it just takes a little gentle reminding that you never plan on going back to the team. You did the right thing by being polite, but standing up for yourself enough to let him know you weren't going buy his snake oil.

It doesn't always take being rude, or blowing up in rage to let them know that they've crossed the line. Unfortunately, some TBMs never get the message.

That grandfather made me angry. Completely inappropriate. The nerve of that guy!

You took the high road though. Good for you.

I would have thought, even if I didn't say it out loud: "You can go to hell." Even in the council, I told them, in all honesty, that I'm not sure mormons go to heaven. Nevertheless, it hurts not to get to go to your children's weddings. I am fortunate, in a way, I can't be at a going away for my TBM grandson - because I would draw the ire of those present when I openly said it was a mistake, that TSCC is not true, JS was a fake prophet, that the BoM is a fake, the BoA is fake, and all the rest is false, also. I did not waver before the high council and I would stand as Stephen before the Sanhedrin.

The Adult in me feels for you having excluded my own family at times.

The kid in me would have told the GFIL that "no worries I will be confuring the Holy Master Jedi powers on him later." The look would have been sooo fun.

Anubis

I'm so not looking forward to these events. I have one son turning 12 in November then another 14 in March and then a third 18 in September. I'm afraid that my rage will come rolling right out if someone makes a remark at all. My instinct is to not be there yet I want to let my boys know I care about the things that are important to them. If I don't go I'll be the "bitter apostate" and if I do go I'll be the "sad man in the corner". You can't win.

Moment missed.
"I hope that in the next four years your will be able to internalize your Eleventh Article of Faith."

Oh Geez....so sorry!

The Mormon mindset can be so insidious, it's really shocking and disturbing how it can bend people's heads. My older sister was the biggest rebel in our family, and wasn't "active" in terms of her behavior even when she was going to church. She pretty much dropped out in her teens and ended up returning and getting sealed in the temple roughly 20 years later. I have noticed a sharp difference in her attitudes and opinions since she's become active. She has become extremely right wing in her thinking, and has backed up public personalities that are, quite frankly, anything but loving, forgiving, non-judgmental, and all the other Xtian platitudes that TBM's and other followerss of JC claim to stand for. My dad's been inactive for over 40 years, and she's even asked him, quite stridently, why he doesn't go and doesn't believe in the church. I can't believe my ears when I hear her say stuff like this, because even a decade or so ago she wouldn't have given a damn whether he believed or not. She almost didn't have her kids baptized when they came of age because she admitted that she didn't expect them to attend church when she and her husband weren't going.

She really is a great person and a devoted sister, and has done some extremely kind and generous things for my parents and myself. I dearly love her, but the change in her thinking has really freaked me out. Mormonism can take root in people's minds
and have them preaching the party line when they previously couldn't stand the church for the very reasons they start defending it. Whoa. That's all I can say.

So just so you know, I totally get where you're coming from on your recent experience with the "other" grandfather, who condescended to you so generously in the name of the Lord.

Mormonism scares me half to death sometimes, and not because I believe in all the hell-fire and damnation doctrines it pushes. The brainwashing can be just as potent as any communist government or fascist regime can dole out.

The more stories I hear like this, the more relieved I am to have put a decade of distance behind myself and the church. Just makes my skin crawl.

Also, the other grandfather is bad at math. 12 + 4 is NOT 18. I know I would have been snarky about that.

starkravingmad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, the other grandfather is bad at math. 12 + 4
> is NOT 18. I know I would have been snarky about
> that.


In all fairness the bad math was mine...I should have said 6 years...

Doesn't matter anyway. I hear tscc is coming out with preach my gospel cd's so pregnant mothers can blast it in their fetus' ears.

Many years ago I had a similar emasculating experience when my youngest son was ordained with the Aaronic priesthood. All the worthy holders of the priesthood were invited to participate. That excluded me.

It was a brutal moment of truth. This priesthood ordinance gave the Church hierarchy power to define me as "unworthy" in front of my children. Silence was acquiescence to them. So I decided to change the situation, and to prevent this from happening again. I taught my kids my beliefs and their foundation, starting with evidence for an old earth and the principles of evolution. We also discussed the humanistic foundations of morality.

A few years later, a young missionary who had come to our home for a dinner visit claimed in front of my kids that he knew that "I knew in my heart the truth of the gospel", I told him that he had no clue about my beliefs or the basis of those beliefs and that he would have to leave our home.

This was uncomfortable and created conflict in my marriage, but it was the right thing to do, and it turned out better for my kids.

I'm glad now that I did not remain silent.

Trust me that day of honest discussion with my grandson will come and on some levels it has already begun.

Last year he asked me if I believed in Adama and Eve...that opened the door for an honest discussion about where humans actualy evolved from, the age of the earth etc. I had some hell to pay for that once he returned to his mother and told her...but it was a beginning.

My attendance at his ordination...was not a surrender of my beliefs...nor an acceptance of his....it was merely a grandfather's showing enough love for his grandson that I was willing to set aside my personal preferences and respect his desire that I be there to support him.

To be clear, my comments were not meant as criticism in any way.

You put your finger on a real problem. Your story reminded me of feelings I don't want to ever feel again and wouldn't wish on anybody.

Wishing the best for you and your family.

Popcorn...these events are much better and easier to live through if you take a big bucket of popcorn. ;)

smuggle in a flask next time. That's what I'd do if I had to go to any mormony event.

You handled it well, but I know it wasn't easy. Kudos to you.

You tried to handle it as best you could - but I don't know.

I think it's time to tell the truth to your kids and grandkids the truth and stand up to the Mormons. Not just acqiesce. I don't think just standing by and letting them rope innocent kids into the cult is taking the high road!

Exmosis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You tried to handle it as best you could - but I
> don't know.
>
> I think it's time to tell the truth to your kids
> and grandkids the truth and stand up to the
> Mormons. Not just acqiesce. I don't think just
> standing by and letting them rope innocent kids
> into the cult is taking the high road!

While I apprecaite your advice...there is also wisdom in taking things slowly...and picking your fights. This was not a hill I was prepared to die on. I'll have pleanty of opportunities in my grandson's life to teach him correct principles. And I didn't feel I was acquiescing anything...I was supporting my grandson's decision to be ordained by attending.

We can't always fall on our swords...sometimes we need to live to fight another day...

Yup - Mormons are great at crying loud and long when they are 'persecuted', but when it comes to being fair to others, nope!

Nevermo -

My child is confirmed by the priest. I'm in the pews, not directly involved. So is everyone else. Spiritual and happy and proud moment.

Baby blessing where child is engulfed in a creepy circle of suit coats where neither parent, no women, no aunts and uncles or grandparents are allowed to participate unless they are Mormon. Bad and ugly moment.

Sitting in a pew as an adult child is walked down the aisle by her father and married by the priest. While not directly involved, happy moment.

Sitting outside and not being allowed part of any of the wedding, sad moment.

Baby baptism in another faith, mother and father are with the baby, plus the chosen Godparents, even if they do not subscribe to that faith. With Mormonism...you lose.

This has to be especially hard for the exmormon man, no priesthood, completely shut out. Just another example of how Mormons pointedly divides people and families. How completely humiliating and condescending and cruel and patronizing. I'm so sorry.

Though you speaking of having to sit with the women and children...maybe we're the best ones. :)

What I would have wanted to say to that grandfather.


"And I would hope that by then my whole family is done with all of this silliness."

I empathize.

I attend sacrament meeting each week ( no other meetings) as an accommodation to my "TBM" wife of 50 + years and have the sacrament passed to her and declined by me, by grandsons. At first it made me very self conscious and uncomfortable knowing and surmising what the members of the ward thought, especially since I'm a past Bishop of the ward.

I quit Believing 15+ years ago for many of the same reasons the majority of this boards participants did. As time has past and members have accepted that my position is final it has become more comfortable for me and the ward members. I'm still the same friendly guy I always was, and they're still my friends and neighbors.

Fast Sunday is my favorite since that brings out the "weird". I sometimes worry that I might make them feel inhibited in their testimony barring, but they seem to be fine the crying and testifying are just as fervent as ever.

I'm respectful and keep my mouth shut and my opinions to my self, because I have a good wife who loves me and I love her and that's how our truce works. Once I realized it's all a delusion it becomes really quite entertaining.

I agree.

I'm sorry, "other grandfather", I took a good long look at your Special Treehouse Handshake Club rulebook and said 'nope'. "