What follows are simply my dispassionate observations of the various groups that I have associated with since my year out of the church.

I stopped believing in Mormonism right before I graduated from BYU. I became a part of several disbelieving groups, several of which atheism was the central basis for social connection. Many carried the appellation Exmormon or Postmormon (which is ironic, because if you're truly Postmormon, you certainly don't create a facebook page to rally troops to actively talk about the church and start protests) or Former Mormon. While the new-found camaraderie was momentarily refreshing, they nonetheless left something wanting in me. I began to notice that many people swing from one extreme to another. Many participants would claim to be much happier since leaving, and yet would post utterly depressing Facebook statuses about being angry and sad all the time. They were lacking a certain joie de vivre that I'm still looking for. So I removed myself from most of the groups, and try to concern myself with Mormonism as little as possible. But after some introspection, I've realized something about myself and these groups. I'm constantly leaving groups, and groups are constantly at each other's throats.

However, there's one group I'm still part of that is trying to create a productive non-religious community. I saw an inspiring message posted on their board: "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." -Buckminster Fuller. I'm just as eager as any of you to see Mormonism dissolve, but to what end? If the church leaders suddenly admitted it was all a fraud, how would the membership react? Wouldn't there be significant trauma and grief for many years? Have we built a model for existing that can adequately salvage all the broken lives? I think the answer is no. That's just the thing that scared John Dehlin back into activity. He's a full blown agnostic that hasn't found a good way to function outside of theism.

So my observations in RfM have been a mixed bag. I see some genuine love extended to struggling people, some constructive conversation, some circle jerking, some pointless vitriol, and some that are caught up in delusions of grandeur. Some people talk about Tom Phillips like he's the ace in the hole; or the 95 thesis movement, or the feminist movement, etc. For those actively trying to bring down the church, I'm afraid we have forgotten our audience in a big way. Some Mormons are legitimately happy, and will never stop being Mormon. So instead, we should focus on happily coexisting. Finding your personal joie de vivre will do more to help Mormons than talking about the Book of Abraham (in most cases). Just my 2 cents.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2013 02:17PM by theauditor.

You do not get to dictate how other people should go about the process of recovering from the giant mindfuck of Mormonism. Your post is condescending and uncharitable to the many folks here who are doing their best to cope with a loss of faith and the fallout that comes with coming out to family, friends and community.

If this forum doesn't work for you, you're welcome to move on to something that does, and godspeed.

Yeah, I do come across as condescending. I lost much less in my transition than many people, so the emotional scarring is only moderate. I apologize for not being able to speak to deeper levels of pain.

Actually, I found your post to be very intelligent and thought provoking in a way that resonated with me personally. If others on this board don't agree, that is their right and privilege, and I respect that.

I will not attempt to change, challenge, or criticize them, as I realize that it is virtually pointless.

I guess I'm just grateful to have a place where I can read, ponder and vent when necessary.

That is all. Others mileage may vary.

I used to think that doing what was right would bring happiness and make things work out. Now, I'm not sure of that. In fact, there may not be any right at all. So, I guess I don't expect Ex-Mormonism to make everything better any more than I think Mormonism would.

I've experienced good and bad from this board. I don't think it makes it right or wrong. If it's helpful, by all means, use it, but I don't expect it to fix my life.

Agreed. Exmormonism doesn't guarantee happiness. I just too often see people leave the church and immediately try to convince friends and family to do the same, before they've even found a new balance in life. I guess I'd just like to see people fall from grace with more grace.

theauditor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Finding your personal joie de vivre
> will do more to help Mormons than talking about
> the Book of Abraham (in most cases).


I agree that living happily and well (I had to look up joie de vivre) is, ultimately, the answer. However, to achieve that you have to be able to "move on" in every sense of the word. Not everyone is like you.

Can I also say, thank you for sharing this quote:

"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."

This, I think, is an idea that I DO think can make a positive difference in my life! I do agree with you in that ex-mormonism in itself is not a solution. It's a hole where Mormonism was ripped out of our chests. We have to find something better to fill the space.

Your post is an accurate portrayal of where you stand in your recovery from mormonism. You seem to be in the "what do I do now" stage and you don't seem to adjusting very well.

Trying to impose order and purpose to a recovery from mormonism website is just a little silly if you ask me. Some people are in the anger stage and need to spew a little vitriol. Others feel insecure and enjoy knowing people like Tom Phillips are out there.

Everyone is different. Everyone is in recovery. Everyone does it differently. There is no "one size fits all" method to recovery.

We haven't forgotten our audience because we are our audience.

I gladly accept your post as your way of trying to make sense out of your new life and I sincerely hope you can accept everyone else's attempts to sort out theirs, as well.

I'm not trying to impose order, simply trying to cause more thorough introspection. I went through the angry, bitter stage myself, and know that it's necessary. But we keep ourselves in a dark place when we become addicted to things that fan the flames of anger.

I actually really appreciated Tom's interview. I appreciate the honesty of Mormonthink.com. But I think it's unhealthy to hope that he's the secret weapon that will destroy the church. And that's what I'm observing here and elsewhere.

<<I think it's unhealthy to hope that he's the secret weapon that will destroy the church. And that's what I'm observing here and elsewhere.>>

Not really. For those who are in the first phases of recovery, it's only natural that they would want the church destroyed and to that end someone like Tom Phillips really is someone to be admired for his courage.

It's a phase, that's all. We all go through it.

Yes, it would be unhealthy for someone to cling to that for the rest of their lives but that's not what I see happening. For the most part all the destroy the church talk is in the context of "wouldn't it be nice if."

The 95 theses post you referenced just popped up this past week and nobody really thinks that sort of thing will mortally wound the mormon church. It's a cathartic exercise and nothing more.

People are not given full disclosure before committing their lives to the LD$ fraud.

I don't think you can speak for what makes people happy, especially for those who love, and value the truth. To many, this is the only reason they stay - they think they have the truth. Those people will hate you for not telling them.

People are adults, and shit happens. Everyone has to learn to pick up the pieces after losses. This is part of living. Arguing that people should be kept ignorant, because YOU think YOU know what is best for THEM is extremely insulting, and patronizing. Treating grown adults as children is exactly what TSCC does.

It is not up to exmo's to build a shinier, new model. Part of recovery is learning your life is your own. You choose your own path.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2013 02:56PM by atheist&happy:-).

I don't think I know what's best for Mormons. I just know that there are appropriate ways to bring up the issues. I tried to gently bring up concerns with my family and got shut down. So now I try to just get along without talking about it. Others launch personal facebook campaigns where every post is about how awesome atheism is and how stupid religion is. That's where I draw the line. I'm atheist, but my atheism is not more important than having a decent relationship with my family.

There are millions of people who live their lives without worrying too much about religion. Society as a whole has built something better - a modern, progressive society that is still improving. Science is generally accepted as being more relevant than religion, technology is improving, civil liberties are increasingly recognized.

If you look at religious and anti-religious groups, you're going to find people who are more extreme than the majority, who just don't care as much about religion. If you find yourself constantly leaving these groups, maybe it's because you keep joining them.

Everyone is in a different situation. For some, fighting to bring down the Mormon church is the best thing they can be doing right now with their lives in order to heal from the damage it has done to them. For others, it's more about living with family members who believe, or coping with a predominantly Mormon population. Sometimes, having a place to vent is the most important thing. The point is, it's not about our "audience", or about being "effective". It's about doing or saying whatever helps you, and meeting a few friends who are in the same situation.

I do need to be more respectful about where people are at in their recovery. I suppose the part about audience and effectiveness really only applies to people with an agenda. And I would just hope that the agenda includes something more than using every day as a smear campaign against the church.

Seeking the truth and smearing the Mormon church are inextricably intertwined.

Even if the words "Mormon church" are never uttered, simply discussing science smears the Mormon church. I find that the most innocuous conversations offend Mormons because some simple fact opposes their belief system.

Further, I'm happy to see those who escaped help others who may still be suffering members.

The church isn't as bad as posters claim? They're just out to smear the Church out of anger or misguided inaccuracies?

I don't think so.

You don't have to lie to smear a reputation. The particular examples I'm thinking of frequently use the words brainwashed, ignorant, stupid, and similar ilk. Hostile language is a conversation killer.

It depends what 'tone' you give those words when you read them.

Interesting thoughts. I agree with you. Many people who leave the Mormon Church seem to dwell on things that do not help them or others. Like pointless vitriol, an example of which we have already seen in response to your post.

I like your attitude. I think Alistair Cooke was getting at a similar thing when he said (albeit in a different context):

"In the best of times our days are numbered anyway. And so it would be a crime against nature for any generation to take the world's crisis so solemnly that it put off enjoying those things for which we were designed in the first place. The opportunity to do good work, to fall in love, to enjoy friends, to hit a ball, and to bounce a baby."

Brilliant quote. Thanks for sharing.

No. That's what mormons do.

Exmormons deserve to live their own lives and work on their recovery from their former cult.

Living as an example, not as an authentic human being is the flip side of mormonism for exmos.

theauditor quoted Buckminster Fuller: "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."

Mormons actually use this idea by asking those who have doubts, "What church offers more than the LDS Church?" After I told my mom I didn't believe anymore she asked, "What church will you attend now?" I told her, "I don't know." All that mattered to me was I knew that the LDS Church was a fraud. I didn't concern myself with replacing it. There are certainly those who still attend because they haven't found anything to replace it. The path out of mormonism can be long and challenging and we aren't all at the same place on that path so I don't judge those people who have not yet found their way out.

Sites like RFM exist because people need support because...well we're human. RFM is not trying to set up a replacement organization, just a place where people can talk and "let off steam." I don't have to know IF there is a true church to know that the LDS CHurch ISN'T it.

Leaving Wrote: I don't have to know IF there is a true church to know that the LDS CHurch ISN'T it.

I had a similar thought recently. I'm 99% sure that 100% of it isn't true. But I'm 100% sure that 99% of it isn't true.

I guess people are reading too much into my message. I'm not saying that RfM has to be the new, perfect organization to save all the Mormons that leave. I'm just noticing that there is an excess of unproductive discussion and activity. People are so anxious to pull Mormons into social and philosophical uncertainty and chaos. But frankly, I can only offer them agnosticism, which has no inherent value.

I took an inventory of facebook events I was invited to. 16/20 were directly related to Exmormonism. The other four were Mormon weddings or mission farewells. I am hopelessly connected to Mormonism. I just wish that people who left had more activities and discussions that weren't polarized with religion and politics.

Or they tell you they've been unhappy and unproductive.

Someone posts their observations about what the other ex-Mormons are doing wrong in their recovery. It's a condescending attitude of "I'm more recovered than the rest of you, because you're stuck in the angry stage." Or that we shouldn't say certain things because it's going to make us look bad to Mormons who happen to see this site.

Eventually someone tells the poster not to tell us what we can't say. And then someone points out the hypocrisy of saying that they can't say what not to say.

And then everyone goes on their merry way until a new poster comes along and creates the same post, with different wording.

Sorry about that. It seems hopelessly cyclical. Is there a way to stop that cycle? Is it just the nature of recovery?

"Some Mormons are legitimately happy, and will never stop being Mormon."

I was a legitimately happy mormon. I stopped being mormon.

I left over historical issues alone. To me it didn't matter how happy I was in the church, or how comfortable I was in it. Many of my fondest memories to this day are mormon ones. However, truth is truth, and no mental attitude can change that.

When I discovered the information that had been withheld from me, I was PISSED, not just at mormons, but particularly at ex-mormons who knew and didn't tell. For most of my life I had been handicapped from making important decisions because so many people were too afraid to speak out and give me crucial information that would have greatly influenced my decisions.

That's why I make war with mormonism, so to speak. I want to make sure that they have the factual information that was denied to me. Unfortunately, I've discovered that most mormons simply don't want to hear it. I've had a hard time coming to grips with this attitude in most people, because I would have always wanted to hear everything - all sides of every issue - any and all confirmable facts. I would never have shied away from discourse, and still don't. It baffles me that so many people do. However, I trust that there must be some human beings out there in mormonism who are like me and who are kept from the truth only because they know not where to find it.

By the way, I've never had emotional problems with losing my faith (I've had other problems, but not with faith). I don't get what the big deal is. Either there is a God or there isn't. Crying about it isn't going to change the reality of the situation. I just like finding out what reality is. In that sense losing my faith was an absolute thrill. I suppose that would make me a bad person to lead a contructive movement. I can't understand why people have such a hard time letting go of God in the first place, or why the existence of a God should even affect our happiness. I was a pretty happy mormon, and I'm a pretty happy ex-mormon. I don't get it. Truth is still truth.

"For most of my life I had been handicapped from making important decisions because so many people were too afraid to speak out and give me crucial information that would have greatly influenced my decisions."

I don't mean to be critical of what you believe, but that seems to me to be a self-centered view. I don't think anyone was trying to mislead you. Intelligent people have different views of what truth is. Expecting others to accept our own version of the truth seems to me to expect too much. As Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (supposedly it was Goethe who first said it) said, "Lord, help me to always seek the truth, but deliver me from those who have found it."

You'd be the perfect leader for a constructive movement. It seems that most of the leaders are so emotionally charged that they forget civility. I'm actually with you on the "war" against Mormonism. But some people's methods don't work. I often see people on other forums boasting about how they told the missionaries to **** off. We just reinforce the persecution complex with that behavior. I left because a friend kindly approached my with a bunch of historical and scientific issues that he needed help sorting out. So that's how I approached my parents. I basically said I couldn't reconcile some things and asked if they'd had that experience and whether they overcame it. That worked much better than instantly raging.

My goal is to get the church to pay me back my tithing. All six figures of it, still tax free. Once they do that, I think I can take even more of my own personal joie de vivre. I'm pretty happy already. I just want a refund.

While I wouldn't claim to be actively attempting to destroy the church (I'm far too lazy & apathetic for that), I disagree that "happy members" are better off being left alone.

If the church was truly a personal thing, I would agree. But, it's nature is evangelistic and cross-generational. It isn't just a person's identity, but the identity for an entire extended family. And then those families are judged by their valiance to cancerously spread the religion.

I know of no families in the church that haven't been damaged by it (active, inactive, or ex- I have yet to meet one who wasn't in some way damaged by the church).

While I am content to watch an individual make a decision I disagree with, as soon as that decision damages someone else, I speak up. I don't dive in and prevent the problem. But I do feel morally obligated to at least warn the person.

Given the opportunity to debunk the church and cause it to fail, I would take it: even knowing that it would cause lots of short term suffering & that most individuals would end up in organization that I disagree with... but very few would end up in organizations as abusive and damaging as the church.