A few of us are working on a redesign for MormonThink (justrob is doing the heavy lifting).

We are getting pretty close to finalizing the new design. Does anyone have any input on what you think would improve the site that we should consider?

Also, does anyone have professional graphic design experience that would be willing to lend a hand? (The biggest need is to develop a professional grade logo.)

Any chance you could put together a discussion meet-up sometime other than Sunday AM? Perhaps mid-week?

Sure - I'll set something up for lunch - this week is bad for me but maybe the end of next week.

Middle is better for me next week, or the following week is good.

Could you bold and/or underline the most crucial (juicy) parts in each paragraph/quote? It makes it easier to get through the text and for people to skim and see the most important parts.

I'm afraid many TBM's might start reading and lose interest if they have to read every word. If they can spot the key words & sentences that matter most on each page it might keep them sucked in.

I don't know if the underlining would work. It's been a while since I've been to the site, but perhaps smaller section/sub-section headings to break down some of the massive blocks of text that are there.

The bolding of the juicy parts sometimes comes across to me as an underhanded tactic (unless used in moderation).

Dear BC

I would be willing to lend a hand with the logo.
Please e-mail me for more information.

b r (at) s c h e m a . c h



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2013 07:09PM by coffee and cigarettes.

Outstanding!! Can anyone say MT T-SHIRTS!

I'm not reading your email address correctly. Can you email me at brian@brigthbuilders.com?

I have been in conversation with TBM's who discount MT b/c in the past the editors have portrayed themselves as active members in order to gain credibility despite personal disbelief etc. I agree that this practice is suspect and not helpful (even if it is an ad hominem attack in some respects). I think advertising the active role or whatever is not helpful if it doesn't reflect true feelings etc.

I think that emphasis should be placed on objective presentation versus opinion in many of the articles (I appreciate that this kind of content change is unlikely--just offering my perspective). In some cases it leads the witness, so to speak, and is simply unnecessary. It also introduces irrelevant bias to the presentation. The facts can speak for themselves.

Right now the website sort of looks like a triptych, with the navigation bar on the left, content in the middle, and various icons/links etc. on the right. I think simplifying with a diptych presentation would be helpful (less visual distraction etc.). Perhaps the icons on the right could be changed to an unobtrusive banner on the bottom (that moves with the browser as the page is scrolled up or down--I don't now about the programming for this sort of thing, so if this is beyond the scope of MT, I dig).

Re-ordering the navigation links on the left to reflect chronological order appeals to me (i.e., 1st Vision first, Book of Mormon, Church restoration, etc.)--the current order appears arbitrary (some of the pages also evince this kind of arbitrary organization--I would be happy to look at specific pages one by one in order to provide more insight into what I think reflects logical ordering if desired). Making it an explicit timeline of major issues would offer even more clarification and context to the average reader. I also think that the main topics should be integrated with the additional topics--no need for separation, necessarily (although the organization might benefit from chronological order as mentioned, or subcategories etc.).

I would be interested to see pages devoted to women's issues and LGBT issues (I personally don't have a lot to offer in these areas, but would support additional content about these categories).

I think the color pallet could use some work (paritcularly in light of marketing theory and colors)--yellow is overused and doesn't convey a strong message of authority, gravitas, etc. Paricularly the shade used by MT currently... See the following links for more: http://www.colourlovers.com/business/blog/2010/12/16/how-do-colors-affect-purchases-infographic and http://palabrasderoca.blogspot.com.es/2012/03/el-porque-de-los-colores-en-la.html). You don't want to copy the Church scheme, obviously, but grey and blue are good, strong colors that convey the right messages. You might also consider brown and certain shades of purple, actually.

You guys are doing a great job at MT! I'm just putting some ideas/obversations out there. Hope you find something useful--if not, so be it and keep up the great work. Let me know how I can help, if at all. I'm visual/have a keen marketing and aesthetic sense. I also like to write and edit (just let me know if you want contact info and I will provide it).

citizen not logged in Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------
> I would be interested to see pages devoted to
> women's issues and LGBT issues (I personally don't
> have a lot to offer in these areas, but would
> support additional content about these
> categories).

We have had several offers from writers to contribute material on SSA and women issues in the church. I will even write a science survey on the latest Ssa status. But none of the writers have come back yet with material.

citizen not logged in Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have been in conversation with TBM's who
> discount MT b/c in the past the editors have
> portrayed themselves as active members in order to
> gain credibility despite personal disbelief etc. I
> agree that this practice is suspect and not
> helpful (even if it is an ad hominem attack in
> some respects). I think advertising the active
> role or whatever is not helpful if it doesn't
> reflect true feelings etc.

I'll just chime in and say that 90% of the material that was compiled by the MT contributors was from contributors that were active members at the time. However, many were either not believers or at varying stages of belief. And some of it was written by people that are still believers.

Good comments on the color.

Some re-ordering of the topics has taken place over the years. Initially the Moroni Visitation was #1 as that was something new, never on any other Mormon-themed website and MT wanted people to see something new as there are a lot of credible sites out there. It was also small and easily readable.

Eventually we listened to readers that said that section is too weak of an issue to lead with and suggested the Translation section which is stronger.

If people read only one section, it should be a good one but not a super long one. That consideration outweighed chronological at the time.

But we are rethinking the listings.

citizen not logged in, I would be interested in discussing the ordering of topics with you in some more depth. Email the MT site if you want to continue this.

Since Tom came on board, we've been reviewing everything and editing things to take out some of the more biased comments that were written by past contributors, adding content, adding links and references, adding a FaceBook page, etc. and we will continue to make the site better. Right now we are focusing on technical changes.

AND thank you all for helping MT with your suggestions and input.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2013 05:39PM by mormonthinker.

duplicate deleted



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2013 05:46PM by mormonthinker.

I think these are great comments. I'd say "simplify, simplify, simplify," and less is more.

In my opinion, the redesign looks much better than the original. Definitely figure out a way to limit the width though.

A lot of the articles need to be much, much more concise. On the front page, for example, I'd delete all of the text after the three intro paragraphs. The Gordon B. Hinckley quote and picture, plus the updates, aren't necessary. Less is more, imho. Let it look a bit spartan, that's fine.

I second more separation of objective fact vs. opinion. There's a lot of places where it has word-for-word quotes where I think a summary and footnote would do. I'd be willing to do some editing if you want, but I'll admit I'd end up cutting out a lot if you let me.

Just for reference, here is the latest design (still in progress):
http://zebrastrut.com/mt/

I still haven't made all the links work (but some do).
I haven't yet done a Table of Contents parser, but eventually it will allow you to see chunks of data instead of just the huge amount of content (the huge version will still be accessible and printable, but it will be easy to view in smaller chunks as well).

...bc & I are meeting tonight with one of the MT guys, so I wont get around to implementing the Table of Contents stuff until later this week (maybe Saturday or Sunday).

I can only speak for myself, but when I see sentences/content that runs across the entire horizontal length of a page, I tend to be less likely to read it. Also, this format style is sometimes difficult for me to navigate, I find myself jumping to the wrong line as I continue to read.

For what it's worth, I much prefer a newspaper style of format (columns) where I can easily read each line in a glance.

I would like to personally say thanks for myself, and the countless future others you'll save from the mormon cult.
Good luck!

Note to justrob - I have some code I wrote for MormonProbe that automatic balances columns if we want to go with a newspaper - column format.

...the only downside to that is that we have to teach the MT guys how to do it.

Since we are consuming their HTML, we can't make any assumptions that their formatting will just work fine with columns (i.e. <img style="position:absolute" or floats, etc...)

But we can discuss feasibility tonight.

I wouldn't go newspaper-column, I'd stick with a single column in the middle, but I agree that limiting its size is a good idea. So if the window gets to wide, the page just puts blank space on the sides of the column. I don't mind blank space, I think that would look just nice.

Well, I'm trying to get you to go to another sight I have previously mentioned to you but it appears to be banned on this sight. DO you remember? It started with mormon and the second word was curtain and then .com. I really like their lay out and it's easy to find topics and info. If you search for your personal poster names bc, justrob and others you may be on there. WHy do you think it's banned? It was VERY useful when I was making my transition out of the church. Until I found RfM, that is.

I haven't been on that site, but I will check it out after work to see what GUI ideas I could use.

Navigation needs to be redesigned
Better graphics/colors
I can help with logo

For my benefit, is your feedback based on MormonThink as it currently stands, or on my partial redesign: http://zebrastrut.com/mt/

I would be very interested in seeing some logo options. I did a quick trace of the thinker and made an image, but it isn't polished (notice the thinker at the top of my redesign site as well as the fav-icon in the browser tab)

Clear headings; color wan and unappealing



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2013 03:15PM by rqt.

This is based on the "zebrastrut" site.

I like the font size.

Check out this site - especially the eye-tracking studies and F pattern:
http://nichcy.org/dissemination/tools/webwriting/reading

With that in mind, I agree with what someone else said about narrowing the reading column. Plenty of studies have show that narrowed columns are better, especially for a lot of text at once.

The new menu at the top is better because it is always available - that was much needed. Chronological, topical? Tough call. I tend to like the topical, but with the dropdown subtopics arranged alphabetically. This is always really hard for me to figure out, especially with so many possible topics and subtopics.

If you want/need help, is there an easier/more visible way to encourage that help instead of on the "About" page?

The "Links" part at the bottom of a topic page needs to have words describing what the link is to, not just the web address.

Reducing the area for the text to about 50% of the window real estate, then using the right side for occasional *large* pull quotes of critical information might be nice.

*Every* claim from *either* side needs an individual reference with links to digital copies of the material when possible.

When quoting something, use a link to an LDS-friendly site that contains the source when possible, not an anti site. This will lessen the argument that it is an "anti" website.

Sometimes I get lost as to whether I'm reading a critic's position or an apologist's position. For example, on "The First Vision" page, under the subheading "Responses to these issues by the LDS church," There is a sub-sub-heading "Joseph not telling anyone about the First Vision for 22 Years" and then a sub-sub-sub-heading that says "From LDS apologist Jeff Lindsay's web site." Then there's some information about from his website. Then another sub-sub-sub-heading with "Critic's response" and there response. And then there is "2) The different versions of the First Vision" but there was no "1)" and underneath it doesn't say if the "Steve Benson interview with Apostles" is from the church, an apologist or a critic. What I'm saying is that headings, sub-headins, sub-sub-headings, etc. need to be more uniform/conspicuous/used to help the reader know who/what they are reading. Maybe make each position have a different color? So *all* official church positions have a blue background, all apologist positions have a yellow background and all critic positions have a green background (or whatever colors). Anyhow, I just sometimes find it hard to follow.

Are you coding from scratch, or using some prepackaged cms, like Drupal or Wordpress?

The content is maintained in Dreamweaver - Justrob is using php to take that content and wrap it in the look & feel.

Good comments Boyd, have to remember those.

Agreed, the multiple sub-headings can get confusing.

More narrow columns and shorter paragraphs are advisable (this kind of content overhaul is a longterm thing, I get that, but worthy of our attention...).

I think that the Cambria font is a good one for onscreen content (for which it is explicitly designed)--it also tracks well when printed, so it is a perfect font for this kind of application (I can see a lot of people printing these pages out from time to time to digest them etc.). The current sans-serif font looks a little too comicsans in some respects (not academic or reader friendly enough, in my opinion). Take a look at Cambria and see what you think.

More to follow.