Should I not have agreed to meet with my bishop?

I spilled the beans and told him bluntly, matter-of-factly, and politely where I stand (that I no longer believe in the church), and that I should be released from my calling.

He asked if I would be willing to meet with him soon. That I would need to bring my temple recommend, and that it would be nice if my wife could come as well.

What should I expect from such a meeting?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2013 10:53AM by evanderbild.

Do not go. If he wants to meet with you, make him come to you. You are not a naughty child being sent to the principal. He likely wants to take your recommend and put you on the spot in front of your wife.

I didn't have a bad experience with this personally, in fact, I still find my Bishop to be a likeable and decent person. There is little doubt that a lot depends on the Bishop's attitude...but a lot depends on yours as well!! If you come to the meeting with a chip on your shoulder, don't be surprised if the Bishop responds badly. Now, there's no guarantee that he still won't respond badly, but it's almost a guarantee that he will if you come in poorly.

For me it was important to attend the meeting, because, like you, my sudden innactivity was a bit of a surprise. I had been active, even serving in some higher callings at the Ward level, so I felt for the social implications, it deserved a little explanation. I chose not to go in to details about my objections with the Church, really at any point, in my interactions with my Bishop. I already knew that he couldn't help, and I wasn't interested in seeking his permission, but I still wanted to maintain friendship with both him and the Ward. To a large degree I've been able to do that. I simply explained that I didn't have a testimony of the Church, but that I wasn't interested in creating conflict in the Ward. Even to this day I see no point in serving another mission evangelizing a Mormon message, albeit an anti-Mormon message. My kids still play with the neighbor kids, they seem to let their kids play at my house, and I try to remain friendly.


Long story short, there are no guarantees, but you are at least half of the equation in this meeting. You don't need to assert your independence to a Bishop, if you have it, act like you have it and that will be enough. He has a right to take your temple recommend, you don't want, so don't stress over giving it up. In fact I might suggest that you hand it to him as one of your first actions in the meeting. "Bishop, with respect, I won't be attending the temple anymore, and given that I don't believe in the Church, I shouldn't have this and I have no use for it". If he presses you on why you shouldn't have it, you simply respond, "because I no longer believe in what this represents. Respectfully, but frankly, I do not believe in the restoration or the Priesthood authority". You may find the whole thing to be better than expected. I'm a big believer in standing your ground, by I also subscribe to the "Don't be a dick" M.O.

No need to involve the OP's wife in the meeting though....It's like the bishop is trying to get him in trouble with his wife and his family. Intrusive to say the least.

Personally...the OP has no obligation to explain his own personal religious beliefs or changes in those beliefs to the bishop. If the OP agrees to meet w/the bishop to discuss this fine, but his wife should not be involved.

The tone I got from the OP's post is one of "being in trouble with Dad." The OP is an A-D-U-L-T and therefore has NOOOO obligation to explain his personal religious beliefs (or lack of)...with NAYONE.....

"The tone I got from the OP's post is one of "being in trouble with Dad." The OP is an A-D-U-L-T and therefore has NOOOO obligation to explain his personal religious beliefs (or lack of)...with NAYONE....."

If the tone is one of "being in trouble with Dad", then the tone of your comment

"The OP is an A-D-U-L-T and therefore has NOOOO obligation to explain his personal religious beliefs (or lack of)...with NAYONE....."

is one of an adolescent trying to assert his independence to his Dad. In other words, of course you're right that there is no obligation in a legalistic sense...but that's not a point worth defending because it's one the Bishop couldn't even challenge! Only the OP know's how best to gauge the Bishop's attitude beforehand, and certainly if the guy is a demonstrated asshole, don't go. However, my experience with Bishops suggest's that the all too common narrative told on this board, of an authoritarian Bishop trying to push the boundaries with members is either exaggerated in some cases, or exacerbated by the attitudes we bring to the table. Anybody who has to assert their independence either does not have it, in these cases psychologically, or they are on the brink of losing it, again psychologically. If the OP doesn't want to go, then he shouldn't go. If there is a reason to try and maintain positive relationships - which is generally a good thing - then he should go with that goal in mind.

As for bringing the wife, I'd rather put that decision in her hand. If she wants to come, let her, if not, do what works. The only reason to shield her from the anticipation that the Bishop might try and disrupt the marriage, is because he may actually succeed. In which case, your marriage is already on the rocks! It's certainly not going to improve by shielding her from the Church somehow...because obviously the Church is already a significant influence on her.

Um, no. Your first few paragraphs - no. Thanks (not) for your paternalistic advice.

Put yourself in his shoes. You know what's going to happen, right?

Decide today if you are committing to leaving the church. People who try to sit on the fence find out quickly that's a very difficult and painful situation.

From the sound of the few lines you posted here, he wants to take away your recommend and embarrase you in front of your wife. (What other possible reason could he want your wife to be there if only to build guilt for what you are "doing to her" and or judge her current worthiness, do you want to put your wife through that?)

It will almost certainly be a preliminary meeting for a church court.

Remember he has no actual power over you. Ask yourself this. Why should I meet with him? What will I get out of it?

If there is something that you can get out of the meeting, then go and have your agenda ready. If not, then don't meet.

There are very few good reasons for a meeting with a Bishop like this. You have already stated that you want to be released from your callings. They do not need your physical recommend to cancel your temple worthiness, that's all online now, or at the very least you can mail it to him. Bringing it up like that is a scare tactic, "look how powerful I am, I'm going to physically remove your temple recommend in front of your wife!"

Cancel, say something came up and you can't make it.

You might also consider resigning, since that would head off any excommunication proceedings.

If, for any reason, they begin excommunication proceedings, know that the definition of apostasy is in the handbook and defend yourself as not coming under the definition. If disciplined, wrongly, appeal to the first presidency. Merely not believing is not adequate to constitute apostasy. Even telling others you do not believe and why, is not apostasy under the rules.

I would not agree to a meeting. The bish tricked me into meeting with him when I thought I was going to his home to home teach his family. Also, keep your TR at home. That way, even in an ambush he won't be able to take it from you. The bish will do everything he can to get your DW on his side and doesn't give a damn if this is destructive of your marriage.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2013 11:33AM by rhgc.

By all means go, but make sure you are well armed with a short list of ironclad proofs that the church is BS.

If you have those ducks all in a row, and the bish' can't defend them (except the usual "Do you want to lose your eternal family" stuff), all he can really say is you should stay in the church is because it's a wholesome family enviroment; remind him that even if it SEEMS like a good, moral place to raise a family, it's still based on lies from Joseph Smith's & Co.'s creative minds, and how immoral and truly hollow is that in the long run? That will rattle him, and hopefully make him think.

Just my thoughts....

Not really sure what to expect, but the fact that he's asking you to bring your temple recommend, and that he's asking your wife to come too doesn't sound very promising.

He'll most likely try and re-ignite your testimony.

I would try and avoid that meeting. The Bishop has set up a situation that puts him in a strongly advantageous position (like the other poster said, he can put you on the spot so easily in that situation).

Try and set up a conversation, with just you and him, and with no temple recommends present, and not in his office, so you can talk matter-of-factly, with no blackmailing or anything.

I guess if you already agreed to the meeting, you could go, but don't bring your temple recommend and don't ask your wife to come, and try and keep the meeting short. Just say you're not worthy to hold your calling anymore (due to a lack of testimony) and that you want to be released.

He will also be trying to figure out what sin you committed. It can't possibly be the church, it has to be you.

If there's anything you shouldn't do, it's this: tell him you're unworthy to hold your calling because you don't have a testimony, and you want to be released. If you're going to do this, you may as well admit to a phony sin you didn't commit. Either way you would simply be reinforcing the untruth of the entire enterprise.

Mormonism is going to have to catch up to modern, secular morality if it's got any hope of survival--and if Mormons are going to stop inflicting suffering on each other. One principle of modern, secular morality is this: all people are free and equal. The entire concept of worthiness violates this principle in many ways.

"All are equal" means that if anyone is worthy, everyone is worthy. That was the original idea of a Redeemer: all are redeemed. Second, no one is capable of judging the worthiness of anyone else. Because all are equal, no one is endowed with special powers. Trying to judge worthiness on a set of external criteria: paying a tithe, having an acceptable testimony; only encourages lying (including the judge's lying) and vanity. It's a matter of course that such ideas as worthiness and being able to judge it in someone else would lead to corruption, because the notion itself is corrupt. It's based on a basic untruth: people are unequal and thus subjugated.

I suggest never to encourage wrongness in other people, even if it's easier on yourself and leaves them happily self-satisfied. Everyone, individually and collectively, ends up paying a nasty price for it in the end.

I had a similar meeting with both the bishop & the stake president (1st councilor) - being EQP at the time had something to do with it.

Personally, I'm glad I had those meetings - they were very cathartic.

My bishop was a total asshole about it (including grilling me for 20 minutes - why would your wife stay with you? & trying to stare me down to admit some deep sin that my "pretended" disbelief was a cover for) and the stake presidency guy was very kind about it - so I experienced both extremes and, in retrospect, I'm glad I had both experiences.

My wife went with me to the stake presidency - I was alone with the bishop.

----------

In both cases I did not go into the details of why - I only discussed it at a high level. In retrospect I wish I had spent hours going into details in the one where my wife was present. Only because she has been unwilling to listen to my concerns in any detail and that would have given me the opportunity to express those problems to her.

I am actually hoping for some extremity in this meeting, mainly for the same reason (I think it would be very cathartic).

If this is some precursor to church disciplinary meetings, they'd pretty much be forcing my hand to resign.

Don't just resign. If they hold a meeting put their feet to the fire. Tell them why you don't believe, in as much detail as they will let you. Challenge their testimonies. Let them know you don't qualify as apostate although you vehemently don't believe in TSCC. Maybe you will infect the council. If they make the error of ignoring the handbook definition, appeal. After the appeal is done, resign.

I was just talking to BiteMe about this on Sunday.

He said what he would do would be to go to the disciplinary meeting, wait to the very end before they proclaimed judgement and given his resignation - basically "you can't fire me - I quit!"

I said I would make the argument that they were disciplining me for telling the truth. I would state that if they could show anything I was saying that was false that I would repent. I would then force them to vote and excommunicate me for telling the truth about the church and have that weigh on their cog-dis.

We both agreed each others approach would be great - however since we both have already resigned it was just day-dreaming.

I spoke for an hour straight. They refused to x me and DFed instead. Asked why I didn't resign, I told them "I am not a coward". After winning the appeal I ended up resigning. I wonder how many on the council I reached with questions such as: "Does anyone here really believe in the Book of Abraham?"

I am afraid that the meeting is going to be what most of you are describing. I could see some potential benefit from it, but I am greatly fearing that it will be one massive guilt trip meant to make my wife cry and make me feel bad for "doing this to her" and "robbing her of eternal blessings".

However, I am in no way changing my mind about the church. My wife knows this. I told my bishop this as well.

What does your wife want you to do? If she has some sort of hope that the bishop will give you some magic counsel that will return everything to the way it was . . . this could turn out badly.

If you do meet with him,,it shows HE still has control. Tell him to meet you at a public place. Starbucks would be a good choice..

NO.....NO.....NO.

I was a bishop's daughter, I know what goes on in those meeting, and the so called 'courts of love.'

If he is sooooooo fricking worried about the temple recommend, all he has to do is make a phone call, they check names with 'lists' so he does not have to worry if you are trying to get into the temple.

Is your wife on your side?
If not, you are screwed.

Allowing yourself to be pulled into an office by some church leader is NEVER a good idea. But especially not under such circumstances.

Don't go and refuse any further discussions. You are an adult and free to believe whatever you want.

But if your wife is on the fence, the conduct of the bish may bring her views closer to you.

Fine, give it up before he asks.
He might want to see if your wife is a traitor too.
I think part of the church's response to widespread apostasy is that they are even more militant about it. They fear a communist takeover and there are some McCarthian attitudes.
I'd resign before they can "discipline" you.
I wouldn't say much, they'll use it against you. They don't care what your issues are...they assume there are expert answers to any issue and that you not buying them is your own bad attitude.
You have to play it cool because if you look "nuts" in any way (including perfectly justified indignance) that just reinforces their prejudice that you're the nut.

Don't go. Politely tell him you aren't interested. You are in complete charge of your religious life now. The Bishop is just doing his job pretending even though he has no idea he is pretending. Stop enabling the pretention.
Most definitely do not take your wife with you if you do go. That is a tool used to shame you in front of the wife. All bad and nothing good will come especially if the wife is not fully on board. If she is still a partial believer do not burn bridges in the meeting which would put you in a bad light and make the spousal relationship worse in her eyes.

Don't go. Not even to return the recommend. 'You have misplaced the darn thing.' No reason to go.

Saying no to what you know is wrong and then taking action is how you get your self-esteem back, your personal integrity back and your man-balls back. Leave the pretended guilt and shame of being a non-believer at church, never look back.

I made my final priesthood interaction before resigning from TSCC was in the temple ceremony in Nashville, TN. You can believe that temple president wanted my temple recommend immediately. I talked with him and explained I would be giving it back to the man who gave it to me, my Stake President. I also explained why I did what I did. When he calmed down and realized how carefully thought out my decision was, we had a fairly nice chat and he wished me well.

Regarding your bishop, it is obvious he wants to assert his authority over you, but who knows how nice he will be about it. If you don't want to officially resign before the meeting (it would be pretty easy to express mail or fax your resignation to SLC before the meeting and cut him off at the knees) at least take charge of the meeting right off the bat. Religion is a "free agency" decision and it is not his job to control you. I'd only take your wife if you know she can handle whatever happens and if she is totally on your side and will defend your decision. Also, I would shred the temple recommend before going to see him, in front of your wife, so there is one less thing to shame/control you over (as if you are not worthy to have it or own it). It's just a stupid piece of paper for heavens sake.

Personally, unless you have a very close relationship and know this man intimately, I wouldn't think this meeting will do any of you much good. If he is a close, dear, friend you might just want to show him how much you respect him on a personal level by agreeing to meet. But if this is not the case there is a very good chance all the negatives the other posters have expressed might occur. I think I'd just phone in my regards to him. Let him know I had already resigned. And if he would like to meet me at Starbuck's (or other neutral place of your choosing) for a hot chocolate and chat about things I'd treat him. Time to take back control of your own life.

Will you keep us posted?

Actually, it appears you've already said everything that needs to be said.

If it's important to HIM or the church, then they can find you. I'd make it as informal as possible... almost to the point of "ehh, whatever."

Generally as soon as I say, "no, I don't want to go to your office, but we can meet elsewhere," it ends.

He wants to get your temple recommend back. Technically, apparently, it belongs to the LDS Church. They are really adamant that non believers (not worthy by their standards) do not get into the temple.

As far as meeting again? That is entirely up to you.
There is no requirement to meet. It's an expectation, however.

Just to be on the safe side, if you decide to attend, you can have a letter of resignation ready if there is any hit of a Disciplinary Court.
However, that may not be what you want to do at this point.

If he just wants the temple recommend back, mail it back, if you are so inclined.

There is no real need to meet with the bishop again unless you have some sense it would be helpful in anyway.

You are under absolutely no obligation to go, but if your wife is still TBM, you should know that he will likely try to meet with her without you present if you refuse. Without you there to defend yourself, he can lay it on pretty thick to your wife. Depending on her feelings about your defection from TSCC, he might be able to drive a wedge between the two of you.

Whether you decide to go, you should talk to your wife about it first. Ask her what she expects to come of the meeting, what she thinks the bishop will say and do, and whether she thinks you are obligated to answer to him.

Either way, best of luck! Your bishop isn't anything to worry about. Your wife is.

> Either way, best of luck! Your bishop isn't
> anything to worry about. Your wife is.


Exactly.

I'm hoping this will give my wife and I some sort of resolution. My wife knows that I haven't changed my beliefs so I can "be a bad person". She knows that the issues I have with the church are mainly doctrinal and historical issues.

If the bishop tries to say anything about me being a bad person or doing this because I want to sin, my wife will see right through it.

Thanks for the advice on talking to my wife more about it. I've told her already that I'm nervous about what he will say and how he will react, and that he'll just try and put me through a big guilt trip. I am curious to see what she thinks will happen though.

Tell the Bishop the meeting won't happen unless his wife comes too.

That sounds way too much like him punishing you, and you submitting. If, indeed, they do everything online, tell him he can just delete you or whatever. Personally, I think it would be best to destroy the recommend or throw it away on your own terms than to hand it back in shame.

I would NOT attend a meeting with your wife present, unless you are ready to run that meeting on your own terms. I would not let it devolve into any kind of worthiness interview or call to repentance. In other words, don't have this meeting unless it good for you. Who cares if the bishop wants to meet?

Lots of good advice here. The only thing I want to add is that he is not YOUR bishop. He is a man, just like any other. His only power comes from those who allow themselves to be subject to his power.
As Gordon B Hinkster put it on television when asked if he was a prophet of God, his only response was, "the members sustain me as such."

Brethren,adieu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lots of good advice here. The only thing I want to
> add is that he is not YOUR bishop. He is a man,
> just like any other. His only power comes from
> those who allow themselves to be subject to his
> power.
> As Gordon B Hinkster put it on television when
> asked if he was a prophet of God, his only
> response was, "the members sustain me as such."

Very true

How many other religions consider you a "traitor" and want to punish you for disagreeing with them ?

That should be your first red flag that you are dealing with a harmful and evil cult.

I think way back when the catholic church murdered many hundreds (if not thousands) of traitors of the faith for not agreeing with them. It was called The Inquisition. Mormons are pretty tame by those standards. And the Office of Inquisition was not decommissioned by the pope until some time in the 1970's. Priesthood power... hang onto your head ! !

Don't give it back. What are they going to do if you don't, get a search warrant? They can just deactivate your bar code. And it's nice to have that piece of paper to prove you were a card carrying TBM when you checked out. I still have several of my old ones. No one can say I wasn't a devout morgbot. And I've got the evidence to prove it.

I met with my Bishop about two weeks ago. I told him bluntly that I no longer have a testimony of Joseph Smith. I handed him my temple recommend. He told me the whole 1st vision story and told me that I have doubt and should pray. I told him to look into his church's own dodgy history; specifically Joseph Smith looking into a hat to translate the BoM, Joseph Smith being married into polyandry, and Joseph Smith having been arrested as a con-man. He told me not to believe everything I read on the Internet. I told him to read "The History of Joseph Smith by His Mother" by Lucy Mack Smith and "Rough Stone Rolling" by Bushman. Both are Mormon friendly authors but tell the truth that you never learn in church. I felt insulted that my Bishop insinuated that I was getting my facts from "questionable" internet sites. To me it was enough proof that my Bishop was basing his whole testimony on feelings and not facts. I sent a resignation letter to Salt Lake, my Stake Pres, and Bishop two days later.
You really should have nothing to fear, just go in with you facts, stick to your guns, and don't back down. Fear comes from the devil. As long as you have truth on your side, you will prevail. I hope that helps.

Telling someone to turn in their recommend is an intimidation tactic of shame.

You own it. Keep it or tear it up yourself. Don't give it to a bishop. He isn't your friend and only wants to manipulate you.