How does TSCC defend Joe getting 8 more people to 'view' (AHEM!!!!) the plates when the BoM and Moroni said only 3 witnesses needed to see them? Without an order from God it sounds like a conman trying hard to convince people he's right. But that couldn't be the explanation....

Wow - lds.org is down so I can't look it up.

But as I recall the text of the book of Mormon says there will be 3 witnesses and then the next verse states that there be more witnesses?

OK their site is back up:


2 Nephi 27:
12 Wherefore, at that day when the book shall be delivered unto the man of whom I have spoken, the book shall be hid from the eyes of the world, that the eyes of none shall behold it save it be that three bwitnesses shall behold it, by the power of God, besides him to whom the book shall be delivered; and they shall testify to the truth of the book and the things therein.

13 And there is none other which shall view it, save it be a few according to the will of God, to bear testimony of his word unto the children of men; for the Lord God hath said that the words of the faithful should speak as if it were bfrom the dead.


- Just FYI is Nephi, not Moroni - just for accuracy

Cheers for the correction. Yeah I looked up that verse before. So the 'save it be a few according to the will of God' bit relates to potential other witnesses, not just the 3. Thank you. Anywhere where it says it has to be 8, seeing as Nephi was so particular about 3 first off?

Even the "few" on the next verse is quite a stretch - verse 12 pretty clear says exactly 3 and then a few in the next verse seems to just be repeating that there will be 3 witnesses - but if you are a TBM it would probably be enough to interpret the "few" as "8 more".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2013 06:38PM by bc.

Agreed, that was exactly my reading of it. The 'few' referred back to the 3, not to another group, be they 8 or 800

I disagree. I think the "few" others clearly refers to more people besides the 3. Look at the verse closely, it says "there is none other." Other than who? Obviously the 3 spoken of in the verse before. So if we put that together with "save it be a few," we get: "There is none other [than the 3]... save it be a few." Clearly its saying that there will be a few others, besides just the three.

Well, I think it is ambiguous.

If the Book of Mormon didn't repeat itself so much with slightly different words I would definitely agree with you. However, it's impossible to tell if its following the common BoM pattern of repeating itself with slightly different words or it if it has moved onto the same subject.

If it has moved onto a new subject it reads like the author just changed their mind from the previous verse - which is also weird.

Certainly my confirmation bias leads me to interpret it the less generous way...

Yeah, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Joe and Co just kinda stuffed that second verse in there in the space between lines when they thought to themselves that they might want more than just the three witnesses!

I believe it was in D. Michael Quinn's "The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power" (I can't locate the reference), where I read that "The Three Witnesses" plus "The Eight Witnesses" plus Joseph Smith, could have been considered to be the original Twelve Apostles of the newly emerging Mormon church. That's an interesting way to look at it, I suppose.

Why did they need any? You don't get a testimony of the BoM through proof, just thorough the HG according to Moron's promise.

So their testimonies mean nothing. They're all coconspirators.

Nor did they even write their own personal testimonies. They just signed something that JS or Oliver Cowdery wrote.

Plus any quotes from the 8 witnesses of what they saw varies widely from what is written in the official statement.

Do you have a reference where the 8 reported their individual accounts?

My favorite account, even though it's not totally reliable, comes from Governor Ford. From MormonThink:

... the witnesses were "set to continual prayer and other spiritual exercises." Then at last "he assembled them in a room, and produced a box, which he said contained the precious treasure. The lid was opened; the witnesses peeped into it, but making no discovery, for the box was empty, they said, "Brother Joseph, we do not see the plates." The prophet answered them, 'O ye of little faith! how long will God bear with this wicked and perverse generation? Down on your knees, brethren, every one of you, and pray God for the forgiveness of your sins '.. The disciples dropped to their knees, and began to pray in the fervency of their spirit, supplicating God for more than two hours with fanatical earnestness; at the end of which time, looking again into the box, they were now persuaded that they saw the plates."

They were hungry and just wanted to go and get some dinner at that point...

I always had issues reading the BOM due to an entire chapter devoted to Joseph Smith trying to convince the readers the plates were real. it's excurciating and obviously a scam artist.

Since none of them actually saw the plates, they are not witnesses.

Yeah I know, they're 'witnesses', I just can't be bothered to type the quote marks every time! But, just to be sure, anyone know where/when Joe was told to get (specifically) 8 more witnesses? Without a clear command from God Joe's actions just smack of desperation!!

:)
Yeah, like I said in the OP, 'without an order from God it sounds like a conman trying hard to convince people he's right. But that couldn't be the explanation....'