I thought I'd pick this up again if only to say that people are giving you a lot of good advice, and there are probably plenty more who would like to weigh in.

I'd only say that one can have the best of both sides. You CAN meet with the bishop, but make it on your terms. You should definitely be controlling the situation and not be speaking to him from a chair across the desk from him in his office. That would assert too much control on his side. He means to humble you, perhaps even humiliate you, by bringing in your wife and controlling you in front of her. For him, this is kind of like a penile extension--my schwarz is bigger than your schwarz; I am more powerful than you.

Change the venue, like making the meeting in your house or at Starbucks, or in a local diner. If he wants to take your recommend, you can decide yourself whether you want to relinquish it. It is not a passport or military ID, in that it doesn't belong to the government or the church. It is your property. If you retain it, you have the bigger schwarz. Make him sweat a bit. Show him who is in control.

The ultimate humiliation in Mormonism is the "Court of Love," in which you are disciplined. You have now announced that you are in apostasy. The wages of apostasy in Mormonism is excommunication. But you have done nothing wrong, so you don't merit excommunication. It will send the wrong message to all the members of the stake, and the stake leadership will likely maximise the humiliation. You may have to now cut this off at the pass by resigning.

And how does your wife feel about this? Will she support you in your "apostasy."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2013 09:25AM by cludgie.

She doesn't agree, but we have both come to an agreement that we will (and must) respect and support each other in our decisions and beliefs, even if they are different. Maybe one day we will be on the same page though.

As far as the bishop is concerned, he has been extremely nice thus far. Even though it would surprise me if he did go into extreme antics, I think I'm prepared for it if it does happen.

I intend on keeping the meeting polite and respectful. If it takes a turn for the worse it won't be my fault.

As to the temple recommend, I would like to keep it as a sort of souvenir.

Part of the reason I'm agreeing to the meeting is that I think it will provide a sort of closure for not only me, but also for my wife.

Thanks for the advice!

cludgie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If he wants to take your recommend, you can decide
> yourself whether you want to relinquish it. It is
> not a passport or military ID, in that it doesn't
> belong to the government or the church. It is your
> property. If you retain it, you have the bigger
> schwarz. Make him sweat a bit. Show him who is in
> control.
>
>

I agree entirely with the thought here, but unless I am mistaken, temple recommends now include a statement right below the signatures that they "remain the property of the church, [are] non transferable, and must be surrendered on demand."

Now I would love to see someone try to force an individual to surrender one physically or legally, but nonetheless, recommends are not your property, at least not if that statement is to be believed.

Huh. You're right about that. It says:

"When properly signed and endorsed, this certifies that the person named is in good standing and may enter the house of the Lord. This recommend expires two years from the last day of the month issued. It remains the property of the Church, is not transferable, and must be surrendered on demand."

That's why I made the crack about the search warrant.

"We're here to serve this search warrant for your temple
recommend. Now if you will just step aside, the officer with the
rock and the hat will do his job."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2013 03:30PM by baura.

hhahaha, oh I wish they'd search with the rock & hat!

Okay, I'm wrong about the recommend. I have two old ones, and I didn't know they said that. I had to really look and put on some powerful reading specs to see it. Still, it does very little to change the narrative. A court can revoke your passport or military ID. A court will not revoke your temple recommend. This is just real cheap and toothless sabre-rattling by the church. I think one just has to stand up to the bishop no matter how good a friend he might be. And most especially one should stand up to the church and choose to defy it. They only have as much power and authority as you let them have.

Yes, the recommend form does say that it is the property of the church.

If you want to be snarky, tell the bishop that you sold it on e-Bay for 25 cents, which is about what it is worth. Then hand him a quarter.

The bishop can invalidate it in the computer system to make it worthless, so his demanding it back is a futile gesture, more to play psychological games with you than of any practical purpose.

If the guy just wants to use your wife's presence to throw guilt at you, why don't you just agree to meet him without her being there?

How about burning that recommend right in front of him.