The thread about Christianity and being "worthy" led to a discussion about sin and forgiveness.

I don't think we need any forgiveness for "sin" except maybe from those we have harmed. Sin is a nebulous thing, who decides what sin is? Certainly, the Bible doesn't have a concise description, nor does any church that I'm aware of. One church says something is a sin, and another disagrees.

Who is to determine that I've sinned? If there's a God, then how is He supposed to tell me I've sinned and that I should repent. Clearly the LDS GA's are full of shit and cannot be trusted. Why should I trust anyone else about that? I think it's up to those around me to let me know I've harmed them, or it's up to me to notice how I treat others and makes adjustments. It's up to us as a society to teach each other how to treat one another.

Who appointed any of these religious people to teach us anything?

"Sin", I don't believe it exists. Immoral and unethical acts exists. Hurtful acts exist. But not "sin".

However some concepts of repentance are very valuable.

One thing I think religion is valuable for, for some people is as an aid to forgive themselves. For someone who can't let the guilt go, religion has a proscribed approach. Clergy can be useful to pretend that they have authority to forgive someone. They can help someone work through their feelings of guilt. The idea that Jesus "makes up the difference" probably can help as well.

Even the punitive approach of Mormonism might be just what some people need to be able to let their own guilt go.

Making things right and apologizing is a powerful concept.

Starting afresh and trying to do better is a powerful concept.

---

Unfortunately, especially with Mormonism, it gets twisted. Instead of decreasing the guilt and shame it serves to increase it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2013 04:11PM by bc.

Interesting take on that bc. Don't you think it's the long history of religion in the world that made us unable to let go of the guilt we feel from making mistakes? Eternal consequences and all. Especially bringing back all old sin in LDS doctrine if you make the same mistake?

I think in theory clergy could be helpful in letting people let go of guilt.

I have no personal experience of how effective it is other than in Mormonism where the concept has gone horribly, horribly wrong. Instead of it being a balm it is a method of control.

However, I believe even in the Mormon church there are pockets of refuge where a few bishops do it the right way - at least most of the time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2013 10:33PM by bc.

Very true - plus

1) Therapists will teach you to do this on your own over time - not be dependent on them to declare forgiveness.

2) They cost less than 10% of your income for the rest of your life.

I read a book once -- or maybe it was just a short
story. About two guys at a big old waterfall, out in
the wilderness somewhere. One of the two was admiring
the sight, awestruck by the play of sunlight upon
the water, the rainbow, the roar of the water.

The other guy took in none of that. His mind was
centered upon the fact that he was divorcing his wife,
in order to spend more time with his mistress.

The story moved on from that scene. It was not meant
to be the main point of the plot or anything.

But it struck me, at the time, maybe THAT's what "sin"
is -- whatever we might be doing, that stands in the
way of our experiencing the larger picture around us.
Whatever we might think, or feel, or act upon, that
begins to divorce us from positive experience.

Of course all of that is subjective -- no two people
are going to have the same problems, or the same exact
solutions in life. So, maybe "sin" will always be a
subjective thing -- and attempts to standardize it,
to serve religious purposes, to play upon our feelings
of guilt, or inadequacy, will always be problematic.

UD

I like your analogy of the waterfall, Uncle Dale.

justsayin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I like your analogy of the waterfall, Uncle Dale.


Of course it might be argued that the guy "getting in
touch with nature" was ignoring the very real problems
of his friend, and escaping into waterfall gazing,
when he might have been helping to ameliorate a divorce.

But... I suppose that the waterfall could be symbolic
of a larger reality, or a greater truth than petty
infidelity concerns.

Human beings are such a complicated bunch...

UD

I agree with the Christian premise that all of us do wrong things in our lives. Therefore "common" sins should be a wash. Only stand out, egregious sins like robbery, rape, torture and murder should get any attention. Those things are subject to punishment right here on the planet by life and death sentences.

Justice doesn't always prevail, but neither does religious karma.

Repentance is an important part of life, but you don't need god or religion to do that. If you have wronged someone, apologize and make amends. Learn from your mistakes and make yourself a better person.

The biggest myth of all is that religion is necessary for morality. The Golden Rule is the only real religious text you need.

I think that forgiveness is a very powerful concept. To me it most often means not having to pay a harsh price for a mistake or for wrongheaded behavior. Forgiveness can come from a person or from the universe in general. There is something profoundly humanizing about it. It represents the ultimate in magnanimity.

I think that's true. For instance, someone may be late paying the rent on a house I own, and incur a late fee. I can forgive the late fee, especially if I know that they lost their job or something. Forgiving each other is vital.

It is projected out in forms that we can see or conceive, in a strange dissociative way that makes it seem we are not doing this to ourselves: "Oh, 'God' is angry with me and is punishing"..."Those idiots/bastards/villains are victimizing innocent little me" etc. In other words, anything that seems to be done TO us...is staged by the guilt in our subconscious. Do away with the God-concept--but that only deprives that guilt of a conceptual foot-hold; it doesn't eliminate it.

'Me guilty? of what??'
Of every passing thought, word, or deed which positions you as separate from others, and from your own divine core nature. In this sense, it is easy to see why traditionally this world has been called "sinful": nearly everything in it socializes us to believe we ARE separate, that we have separate interests that need preserving, defending, or attacking others in order to advance. Any "us vs. them" thought, grievance, or mental tsk-ing that assures me that I am somehow better than another reinforces this belief in separateness. Isn't that about 99% of people's everyday thinking?

No one is exempt from this betrayal of our divine nature, and it is said that this is the real reason for the death of our built-up life-structure of separateness, our personality and body. "The wages of sin," you know. How to wake up beyond this entrapment in the spell of separateness--for it is like a totally unnecessary nightmare--has been the message of so many spiritual teachings.

Forgiveness is a big power trip.

I FORGIVE you because I am in a position to make moral decrees
about you. I'm being THE BIGGER PERSON and magnanimously giving
you that which you have not earned.

Brilliant dissection, baura. And I'd like to add that perpetrators are the biggest supporters of forgiveness.

Wow! Really good perspective. Forgiveness and arrogance are a bad combo.

It was called "Mistaken Goals".

I like to think of "sin" in that way. One behaves in a certain way in order to acheive a goal - which may be a "mistaken goal".

Basically, the mistaken goals were

a. a perceived need for power
b. a perceived need for revenge
c. a perceived need for attention
d. a perceived need to avoid responsibility.

I think the model works for much of what we would consider "sin".

my "TBM" wife LIED in her divorce (No Adultery, No abuse) papers; my TBM friends tell me I should 'Forgive' her... What about her (moral) obligation to 'Forgive' me of my mistakes???

As with most things connected / related to Basic Christian Values, ChurchCo practices are hit-and-miss; but on earrings, tattoos (?): No Discretion is allowed, 'the prophet has spoken'.

BS, Folks

I think there are basically two classes of "sin."

One class is about the harm we do each other. These are things that every group of people, regardless of religious beliefs, have come to realize are harmful to order, safety and individual wellbeing. Murder, rape, injury, theft, etc. Religion claimed ownership of these "sins" even though they didn't invent them.

The other class is about things that harm no one. They just displease the Invisible Man. How you trim the corners of your beard, the color and fibers of your shirt, how you spend the weekend, whether you fondle your genitals...

The second class of "sins" isn't really about displeasing the Invisible Man, though. It's about the whims and agendas of the priestly class who claim to speak for the Invisible Man. The second class of "sins" are crap.

Our broad definition is that "sin" is anything that comes between us and God. It could be an overt act, stealing, adultery, or something inside your head, jealousy, lying, etc. By this definition, guilt and worry can be a sin if you begin to feel you aren't worthy of a relationship with God.

By saying to love others as we love ourselves, Jesus is also commanding to love ourselves. Forgiving yourself when you mess up is much harder for me to do than to forgive others.

"others" as they appear to us are like 3D figures in our waking dream, which we dream up to dramatize the dynamics of our own mind, forgiving others IS the way to forgive yourself.

Looking at it in a more golden-rule way, if you do not forgive others, you will secretly believe that you yourself do not deserve forgiveness: you will think that "God" or your superego will behave toward you the same as you behave toward others.

Your post makes sense to me, and that's disturbing. You're saying that reality is global to the individual, right? So that all interactions are meaningful as perceived by each actor.

And Hemmingway said, "If you're any good at all, you know it's all your own damn fault."

In my gut, I don't want to be a victim. I think I am, but I don't want it.

Now you confront me with 3D imagery, and you make me think. If it's all a projection, our behavior towards it is the essence of our lives. Ownership means nothing.

If you want to be forgiven, forgive others.

You don't need a college education to figure out that one.

We make mistakes.
We want them to not matter.
We say, "I'm sorry." (meaning, I won't do it again, or at the very least, I'll try to not do it again)
Someone else makes a mistake.
They want it to not matter.
They say they're sorry.
What do we do?

An interesting phrase:

"Forgive others for what they DIDN'T do..."

If you try looking at life as a waking dream, then people can become lucid in it, just as they can in sleeping dreams. But obviously most people are not that way.

Another interesting catch-phrase: "We see others as WE are, not as they are." This, of course, is absolutely true in a sleeping dream, where all the phenomena are mental constructions. (Funny, but doesn't the waking brain also 'make' images from non-pictorial neural data?) Would you dream you got in a fight with someone, then search out that person when awake and get revenge? We cast others to play out our own subconscious script & expectation--even when that expectation is to have our conscious expectation violated. What a drama. And if everyone is doing likewise, meshing with other actors who play expected roles...what an asylum we're living in (if you can call that 'living').

I think real forgiveness means seeing through that entire drama: we are not the dream figures we take ourselves to be, and neither are others. It's not "pardoning," which means taking the dream roles seriously.

By the way, I really like your gist of "the essence of our lives." It's not the elementary school reaction of 'they MADE me do it' or 'he did it to me first.' I think such an attitude, however flatland-realistic it may seem to me-as-dream-figure, is a self-assumed victimization. "Our lives" are the flows we live, with no "that's life" excuses for less-than loving behavior.

I forgave someone who gravely wronged me once, and it was tremendously freeing. I liken it to putting two heavy suitcases on the ground and walking away from them. Until that point, I hadn't realized what an awful weight I had been carrying around with me.

But it took a long time to get to that point. I couldn't just forgive because I wanted to do so. It was the product of a long, inner struggle; one acheived after all the hurt, pain and anguish had been processed and extinguished.

It was the best gift I ever gave to myself.

Don't tell someone you forgive them, unless they have asked for your forgiveness, and you honestly forgive.

My mother told me she forgave me. When I asked her for what, she couldn't answer. I never asked her to forgive me. I never did anything to her that needed forgiveness that I could think of.

I think she thought that she would be absolved of all her mistreatment of me, if she said forgave me. She seems totally confused about the topic of forgiveness and what it means.

I'm not going to dwell on that a lot. She's gone through life in a sheltered and confusing bubble of Mormonism. She refuses to even consider that someone who isn't mormon may have something to offer this world. If you're not mormon, you're not worthy of her time or attention. People who study the human mind and psyche are considered evil to her.

Good points, Mia. It drives me crazy when there's a shooting or something and you see the Christian nuts on the sidewalk as they haul the guy into court with big signs saying, "we forgive you" and other such nonsense. It's not even theirs to forgive, nor did the responsible party ask for it.

1. I agree it is not for us to forgive those who have harmed others.
2. Forgiveness to many people even outside of moism is something which is conditional - requiring a process of asking for it and doing penance, etc. In many religions it requires going to "authorities" of a religious nature to look for forgiveness.
3. Without the feeling of being forgiven, many people feel guilty and are wracked with guilt.
4. Through the acceptance of a freely given forgiveness, one can feel clean and able to continue on. Of equal value is that of forgiving others, not because they are begging for it, but because it aids in our own desire for it. This is NOT a matter of feeling superior but of humility, the acceptance of our own imperfection.
5. Moism is the ultimate application of the OT laws and the attempt to earn a reward. Christian forgiveness is not.
6. Sin is not just hurting others but also, often, hurting ourselves. I have known people who are oblivious to the pain they cause others, people who are totally amoral, and people who actually enjoy inflicting pain on others. The concept of sin comes from the basic nature of man, of good and evil, and man's ability to choose.
7. Forgiveness must not only be unconditional but should result in permanently putting aside the matter forgiven and never bringing it up again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2013 09:30AM by rhgc.