Songwriters: JOHNNY MANDEL and MICHAEL ALTMAN


Through early morning fog I see
visions of the things to be
the pains that are withheld for me
I realize and I can see...

That suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please.

I try to find a way to make
all our little joys relate
without that ever-present hate
but now I know that it's too late, and...

Suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please.

The game of life is hard to play
I'm gonna lose it anyway
The losing card I'll someday lay
so this is all I have to say.

That suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please.

The only way to win is cheat
And lay it down before I'm beat
and to another give my seat
for that's the only painless feat.

But suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please.

The sword of time will pierce our skins
It doesn't hurt when it begins
But as it works its way on in
The pain grows stronger...watch it grin, but...

Suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please.

A brave man once requested me
to answer questions that are key
'is it to be or not to be'
and I replied 'oh why ask me?'

'Cause suicide is painless
it brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please.

...and you can do the same thing if you choose.

Yeah, maybe, but life's much more fun.

Not for those left behind

wine country girl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
...
> 'is it to be or not to be'
...

Both -- and neither.

We all commit suicide --
some just sooner than others.

Major Frank Burns
4077th M.A.S.H.
c/o Inchon Heliport

I think that those of us who have tried or contemplated the ultimate solution have something in common. I would never sneer at a suicide. My cousin, a TBM who drank and used, hanged himself in his tool shed.

He was a prominent person in my life. He never married and ended his life at forty, testimony intact. There was a small bag of weed in his night table.

I've had two friends and an uncle kill themselves. Trust me, it wasn't painless for anyone.

Mia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've had two friends and an uncle kill themselves.
> Trust me, it wasn't painless for anyone.


In my case it was my long-time dorm-mate, Sidney Furlong,
of Ogden, Utah. I know that his surviving family would
not mind my mentioning his name.

He was a sensitive (perhaps overly sensitive) artist and
jewelry designer. One of the few people who have ever called
me "brother" without any forethought. A great cook. A fellow
who never quite understood himself or why life was so unkind.

But the anger within distorted and confused him. He let it
overwhelm him and, in the end, he lost his struggle with it.

UD

"That time of year thou mayst in me behold
When yellow leaves, or none, or few, do hang
Upon those boughs which shake against the cold,
Bare ruin'd choirs, where late the sweet birds sang.
In me thou seest the twilight of such day
As after sunset fadeth in the west,
Which by and by black night doth take away,
Death's second self, that seals up all in rest.
In me thou see'st the glowing of such fire
That on the ashes of his youth doth lie,
As the death-bed whereon it must expire
Consumed with that which it was nourish'd by.
This thou perceivest, which makes thy love more strong,
To love that well which thou must leave ere long."

Iambic pentameter is the most challenging of all metrical English writing. Bill Shakespeare's IQ is estimated at 200. That number is above the measureable high. The fact that his vocabulary was broader than any other English author indicates a superior mind.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2013 01:38AM by donbagley.

It is?

I've never had much of a problem with it. In a college class we were asked to rewrite a scene from R&J, so I did it in iambic pentameter (not required). I even made a section rhyme and threw in some puns. 'twasn't very hard at all, once I got into the groove of things.

Not saying the man didn't do some great stuff, but I don't think iambic pentameter is hard at all. It just takes the right mindset.

What are you waiting for? Revise and demonstrate?

Wow...It's hard to believe that TODAY is the 30th anniversary of the last episode of M*A*S*H.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIIqYqtR1lY

It is not painless..

My friend and colleague... a professor at BYU shot himself
While his family was at church. I still think of him and it still hurts.

Gosh, don b, I had no idea that iambic pentameter was considered difficult. I just thought it was "pretty."

I remember doing a term paper - all in iambic pentameter - in my sophomore year in high school. It told the story of what might have happened if Romeo and Juliet hadn't both died, but instead, if they had run away together. At the time, I thought it was harder to come up with an interesting story than to get the rhythm of the words right, but I recall that it blew my teacher away. (Trying to use Elizabethan-period English rather than modern was tricky.)

He gave me an A+ on the paper and asked if he could keep it, just to prove to other teachers that a student of his had actually written such a project!

I had forgotten about that for YEARS!!!

REMEMBER me when I am gone away,
Gone far away into the silent land;
When you can no more hold me by the hand,
Nor I half turn to go, yet turning stay.
Remember me when no more day by day
You tell me of our future that you plann'd:
Only remember me; you understand
It will be late to counsel then or pray.
Yet if you should forget me for a while
And afterwards remember, do not grieve:
For if the darkness and corruption leave
A vestige of the thoughts that once I had,
Better by far you should forget and smile
Than that you should remember and be sad.

--Christina Rossetti--

Well done.

Okay? If you can write in that meter and make it interesting, you are a good writer. Don't tell me that it's meaningless because you are a slouch. I don't care if you slobber yourself to sleep in front of a TV set. If you can compose, you have talent.

To Wine Country Girl,

Just curious as to why you posted those lyrics.

My grandmother. It affected her children, which caused her children's children to be affected by it, and on down the line.

I've been angry at her for that throughout most of my life. I'm older now and have gained at least a little wisdom through the years. But it's still very sad.

http://www.mash4077tv.com/ Posted because of the 30th anniversary of last episode of MASH tv show being aired on Feb 28 1983

are we sure it wasn't 1982?

Go check.

Such a great tune. Many memories. I don't think that it was ever explained in the TV series. My LDS relations were horrified at the movie scene where they were trying to figure out whether Hotlips' collar matched the cuffs.

and at this time of year it'd be COLD & lonely & sad in most of the continental north America

& in the summer it'd be icey in the Air conditioner & lonely & sad or damn hot unpleasant & lonely & sad in summer

either way it'd be bad

individually lonely & sad

and a real F**** job hostile attack on your children siblings colleagues cousins parents grandparents on the way out- a cowardly attack the most passive aggressive way to die

\not only do I not support romantacizing or aggrandizing the song, some are chaos makers b ringers of the worst in others & I do not condone or support suicide through song movie scene or romanantizing- in this or any moment- I stand for person's right to fight through struggle survive theirlife not do a passive aggressive way to die

for cancer, incurable illness, with diagnosis there is support in hospice and physician assisted non technological torture in the event of terminal illness, with hospice or hospital social workers caring for ones beloved assisting and supporting those who love you in the event of your death, made necessary by the physical impossibility facing physical adversity through various incurable diagnosis- carrying preparing transitioning and caring for those whom your have left in the most gracious way possible.

no. no way will I romanticize or support suicide the most uncaring possible way to die f**** ing over every possible friend in the end, every child every sib every parent
an act of hate.

I've been mad at people I know who killed themselves too, but in the end I realized it was selfish of me to expect them to live simply for my benefit. They were suffering horribly and saw no other way out. They did the best they could in a horrible situation and I'm not mad about it anymore.

I feel the same way you do here. I can't imaging the pain that is so excrutiating that death becomes the only answer one can imagine. I can deeply sympathise.

I've felt pretty low at times and considered it, but never so low as to crave it as a solution. Pitty the poor souls who do and those who have to live with the choice, too.

"no. no way will I romanticize or support suicide the most uncaring possible way to die f**** ing over every possible friend in the end, every child every sib every parent
an act of hate."
-----------------------------------------

This is exactly how I feel. My sibling committed suicide. It destroyed my dad...we *never* got Dad back the way he was before. It drained all the life out of him. It was like living with a shell of what Dad used to be. Years later, he had a traumatic medical event and when they unloaded him from the ambulance the doctors told him they could try to do surgery to save his life but that it might not work and that even if it did the recovery period would be hard. Dad said he wanted to go be with his kid (the suicide). So we got to lose him *again* to our sibling. At Dad's request, the doctors treated him for pain and let him die on that gurney while the rest of his kids watched him be torn from us.

I hated my sibling for many, many years. I did not go to the funeral, I have never visited the grave, I try not to think about it. I have learned to love my sibling again, but I am still angry decades later. I find that being f***ed over like that by someone you love keeps resurfacing and affecting people who weren't even born yet when the suicide happened. My parenting is affected in a major way because of what happened. I am afraid that my kids will do to me what my sibling did to my parents/family and so I avoid a lot of the "tough love" types of things that I think they need to learn because I am terrified that if they get upset they'll choose to check out. It is a crippling fear and I do the best I can with it, but my kids, who never knew my sibling, are being impacted in a negative way by the fallout.

My sibling was in pain at the time of the suicide because they found out their loser spouse had been cheating on them. Yeah, that's painful....I'm not denying that. But the solution is to dump that loser who was not good enough for them in the first place and move on either with your own strength and the support of your friends and family (which sibling had 100%) or find someone else who treats you the way you deserve to be treated. That was *not* justification for leaving everyone who loved this person in ruins and with wounds that will scab over a little bit but will never really heal. The only one in sibling's life who wasn't devastated by the suicide? The cheater, who couldn't have cared less about any of the pain the sliminess had caused. Divorce was not final yet so cheater got all the marital property for themselves and didn't have to split it. A good deal for them; the death was very convenient and they showed no remorse about anything. The day our family's world came crashing down was the day the cheater won the lottery.

Suicide's a cruel thing to do to those who love you. Not saying everyone who takes this route is a horrible person or that I'm better than anyone.....just saying it is heartlessly cruel to go out in a way that effectively destroys so many other lives. It's not honorable or poetic or glamorous.

still hurting Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> My sibling was in pain at the time of the suicide
> because they found out their loser spouse had been
> cheating on them. Yeah, that's painful....I'm not
> denying that. But the solution is to dump that
> loser who was not good enough for them in the
> first place and move on either with your own
> strength and the support of your friends and
> family (which sibling had 100%) or find someone
> else who treats you the way you deserve to be
> treated. That was *not* justification for leaving
> everyone who loved this person in ruins and with
> wounds that will scab over a little bit but will
> never really heal.

With suicide its never really just one thing, its a lot of things that become too much to bear together. A perfectly healthy person doesn't choose it because of a single life event.


> Suicide's a cruel thing to do to those who love
> you. Not saying everyone who takes this route is
> a horrible person or that I'm better than
> anyone.....just saying it is heartlessly cruel to
> go out in a way that effectively destroys so many
> other lives. It's not honorable or poetic or
> glamorous.


You're not the one who had to live inside their head. You have no idea what it was like or if you could handle whatever was going on better than they did.


What I don't understand is why suicide is treated so differently than other fatal complications. Suicide is a fatal complication of mental illness. It isn't like someone in a good head space does it to hurt everyone they know, it was literally the only option they thought they had at the time. Suicide runs counter to every instinct people have- self preservation is an extremely powerful drive, serious dysfunction is required to override it.

copy cat suicides? we have a problem with that among teens in the community where I work with intervention with at- risk - teens, and so, I do everything in my power not to promote it, providing prompt referrals for mental health counseling preventions, interventions, 5150s, on a daily basis. It is not an acceptable gestalt or agrandized way to go to promote as an acceptable thing to do or express pain among one's friends; my statement is about sustaining and setting the norm. And not supporting this as something to emulate but as a form of both simultaneous self and others hate.

"With suicide its never really just one thing, its a lot of things that become too much to bear together. A perfectly healthy person doesn't choose it because of a single life event."
-------------------

I will have to agree with you to disagree because I'm already regretting posting on this thread because I should just never think about this crap -- it gets me too stirred up and I am not going to think about it anymore right now.

I do want to say, however, that what you typed above sounds a lot like "life" to me. That's what life is.....a series of getting crapped on repeatedly and being bombarded with a variety of problems that can seem overwhelming at times. (Hopefully the stressors are interspersed with some reasons for happiness, too, and this absolutely *was* the case for my sibling.) I'm not sure there is such a thing as a "perfectly healthy person." Someone who copes perfectly with every bad thing that comes at them is hiding behind a facade, IMO. Problems are hard to cope with....that's part of the definition of "problem." I'll stipulate that, yeah, he was sick. I'll stipulate that finding out about the cheating wasn't the only thing pressing on him but was rather the trigger that said "I can't deal with my problems anymore." I don't, however, agree that I have no idea how I would handle that kind of pain. I've been through abuse from a spouse, I've been through divorce, I've been through plenty of the same crap he went through because all that pain is part of life. And now I've been through his suicide, been through watching my dad waste away because life's not worth living if the "most important kid" is gone, and still living with the frustration of how it is still haunting me and making me less than the parent I want to be and that my kids deserve (they need structure and limits, but I'm pathetically afraid to apply these in a way that really gets through to them because of the demons I'm living with). People can't expect to go through life and not have any of it hurt. There are times when sucking it up is the appropriate thing to do. Yeah, people who kill themselves aren't mentally well. But that doesn't mean those of us who got left in the rubble of their actions don't have a right to our experiences or have to justify feeling as we do.

It may be genetic. I know of no one in my family who lost their will to live. I do wonder if it is a mental thing. Don't know, but sad nevertheless to find your end that way.

I had a good friend do the same thing. It broke my heart. And, several times in the last few years, particularly in the the last month, I've felt the same way. I've called one of my sons to come pick me up because of what I might do. My husband was murdered almost 8 years ago. 30 years of marriage down the toilet. That's a lifetime, I certainly understand.

I lost one of my closest friends ever to suicide.

I couldn't sleep, I couldn't stand to be awake. I went to work. I couldn't work. I went home. I couldn't stand to be at home. I went back to work. I could not stand to be--anywhere...doing anything. But...luckily I could not stand to 'not be' either.

I have never experienced anything as intensely raw as that pain. I cannot even imagine how much more horrific it is for a lover, for a parent, for a child.

It did make me love this friend all the more. How very deep the pain, the sorrow, the hopelessness. He was so bright, so funny, so clever. We never knew. It was, as they say, out of the blue.
All I can do is still love him.

Time did not give perspective in this case. It did not erase the feelings. It did not, as they say, heal everything. I still have no conclusions, only musings.

This is the translation of a song called "C'était l'hiver" (It was winter) by the great singer Francis Cabrel.


She was saying : "I have already walked too much,
My heart is already too heavy with secrets,
Too heavy with sorrow"
She was saying "I don not continue anymore,
What is awaiting me, I have already lived it.
It is not worth it"
She was saying that to live was cruel
She no more believed in the sun
Nor in the silences of churches
Even my smiles scared her
It was winter in the bottom of her heart

The wind had never been as cold
The rain as violent than on that night
The evening of her twentieth
The evening she put out the fire
Behind her eyes
In a flash of white
She has surely rejoin the sky
She shines next to the sun
But if since that night I cry
It is because it is cold in the bottom of my heart.

Amen

All I can say to those who deride someone's choice to end their life is: You've obviously never had the kind of continuous emotional or physical pain where this seemed like a good option.

That is very true. There is something so disconcerting about it. Maybe makes the ones left wonder if there was anything they could have done to prevent it. Makes one somehow feel responsible in some way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2013 11:08AM by suckafoo.

Amen & Amen

Good Witch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All I can say to those who deride someone's choice
> to end their life is: You've obviously never had
> the kind of continuous emotional or physical pain
> where this seemed like a good option.


I couldn't agree more.

Better to support life among the living and give love and hope whenever possible.

But deriding the reaction of the loved ones left behind if that reaction is less than pretty (like anger, being haunted) is okay, right?

"But deriding the reaction of the loved ones left behind if that reaction is less than pretty (like anger, being haunted) is okay, right?"

Just from me--I was ONLY referring to my particular situation. Every suicide death is different. Some parents of children with suicide deaths are hopping mad and I don't judge them. Feelings just are. I hope they let me feel supported with mine and I support them as well. Spouse deaths are often rife with anger. The wise words from a grief councelor--whatever you are feeling is exactly what you need to be feeling at this time. Anyone who tells you that you "shouldn't" feel a particular way is someone to get away from as quickly as possible.

I did not deride your reaction. I only make the observation that to have a reaction like that, one must not have had the kind of pain that would make suicide seem like the only option left, and hopefully, you never do.

My wife's father's suicide left their family destitute. Suicide is not painless.

Interesting thread. I appreciate the different points of view. I've been in a very deep, dark place myself, but never to the point of suicide. I think some hurts just go too deep and never go away.

TG

Frodo: How do you pick up the threads of an old life? How do you go on, when in your heart you begin to understand there is no going back? There are some things time cannot mend. Some hurts that go too deep that have taken hold.

Exactly.

TG

My Dad kept that secret for many many years.

His TBMness was his saving grace. I know that sounds weird. But he had to live with it.

When I was in college it was told.......I wasn't shocked but sad that he didn't see any way out. He was ill/had infection and no antibiotics in those days......

It hasn't been painless for the family left behind. I never met him and never knew my Uncle. My Dad was too young to remember them very well....

Suicide is definitely a choice......one we all make. I think my Grand Father was trying to be compassionate. My Uncle had many problems too............

We always blamed their deaths on the flu of (1918 epidemic)

Secrets are painful.

I love that song............I miss Mash.

KJ



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2013 11:32AM by kj.

All this song is saying is that death is painless and life is not. Owing to the Bard, our choice is clear:

To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.

Everyday we choose weather to live or die. We can take it or leave it, if we please.

And yes, it is our right. Like many other rights we have, such as gun ownership, abortion, marriage equality, it may not be something you wish to participate in. But it is our right.

And P.S. For those left behind - it's not about you.

And Happy Anniversary to M.A.S.H.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2013 11:38AM by wine country girl.

My SIL's uncle hung himself a couple weeks ago. They found him in the shed in the back of the business that my BIL owns. My BIL is the one that found him. They worked together for years. He needs counseling now because he wakes in the middle of the night with that vision of her uncle hanging there. It's been awful for them.

I hope I am wrong but we sure losta lot of young people

this week in Utah county..trying to read between the lines and

hope that suicide is not the common thread.

http://www.heraldextra.com/lifestyles/announcements/obituaries/

Y'all are probably sick of hearing it by now, but I have to chime in. My daughter was 18 when she took a bottle of Welbutrin and died after hours of suffering. Parents tend to be protective of their children even after their lives are plunged into hell. My child was sick. She was too ill to think about anything, but excruciating mental pain. The best mental health care we could buy could not remedy her pain. She knew it was not going away ever. Anger is a normal part of grief. My anger goes to those that say my child was selfish. My anger goes to her bishop, my TBM brother, my TBM BIL and anyone else who pronounced judgement on her.

as he is still here, though he tried suicide twice--He still suffers.

Your daughter was not selfish.

My heart goes out to those that carry on despite attempts to get out of this life. And those that suffer along side them. Sending good thoughts and love.

Music/poetry. What would we do without it?
I heard the Skyfall theme song for the first time last Sunday night. It's been playing in my head for days now.
Haven't seen the movie so I have no context other than my own, but what an appropriate soundtrack it's been for me this week in light of events transpired/discussed here on RfM. Haunting and comforting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeumyOzKqgI

(*sighs* See what trouble you started, WCG?)

I had a suicide kit for a few years. I know how easy it is to lapse into depression and think you can't find your way out. I still don't know where I stand with this. While I can in no wise be judgmental about people who commit suicide, there is certainly something to be said about thinking how it will affect others. My depression waxes and then wanes. But when I'm deep into it, I think a significantly serious setback could really push me to the edge, and I understand that. I try to tell myself over and over during the depressed times how I will be coming out of this relatively shortly, so just hang in. So far it has worked. One has to keep up a relationship and running dialogue with oneself, too, much as one would with another person. That's how I see it.

The essence of humanity is in this thread. The ability to contemplate and come to terms with the complexities of the human mind is our reason for living. The wonder of it is the myriad of interpretations of something like suicide varies from person to person, yet in another sense it is universal...

Life. No one said it was easy....

I wonder what is more selfish. For someone in pain to take their own life, or for their friends and family to want them to endure that pain just for the pleasure of their company

Interesting thread, never seen one like it on RFM.

Each and every one of us could end our own lives, one way or another. The great majority do not. Many attempt suicide, and many are saved from suicide.

For those that determine it's a viable option, I have no judgment.
Compassion and understanding are often difficult much of the time.

I've struggled over the years with someone's suicide and have come to a point where I can accept that they had their reasons for their decision and they are none of my business, even though I am always curious.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2013 12:56PM by SusieQ#1.

Thanks for this thread. I've attempted suicide several times, the most recent being last summer. I appreciate everyone sharing how much a suicide has devastated them and their families. When things get bad, my mind sometimes gets into a state where suicide seems to be the most logical way to go. It helps to make myself think about how much damage I'll leave behind if I kill myself. It makes no sense, but the damaged I'd do to myself by suicide doesn't seem to matter. But I can't stand the thought of hurting those I love. Thanks for sharing your stories.

I always judged those who took there lives as selfish.
6 years ago I started living in chronic 24/7 pain.

It is with me always. It wears you down. Drugs take the edge of but they have effects on your mental state. I have always been a strong willed person, still believe I am. But I can't imagine living with pain physical or emotional if you aren't strong to begin with.

I no longer judge those who make this choice. I feel sad for their families. Mine keep me getting up each day and trying to see a light. But now I understand that some pain for so long can become unbearable. I am looking at 20 years like this.

The person who took their life never did it planning to hurt those that love them. Only to end suffering htat they could not bare.

We don;t let animals suffer...we find it inhumane.

My father always told me never to judge what someone else might be walking around with.
Sometimes there are no answers.