On a recent thread by “sherlock” about Mormon Easter, “snb” addressed comments I made. I didn’t get a chance to respond before the thread closed.

Sherlock mentioned a directive by SLC to include Jesus in ward meetings at Easter time this year. From his remarks to me about my post, I believe that snb misunderstood my comments, or felt criticized by them, which certainly wasn’t my intent, so I wanted to clarify.

Reference Thread:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,812584,812584#msg-812584

I said: “Two out of three of my Mormon Easters were entirely devoid of any mention of Jesus at all, never mind the cross or the resurrection. The other one occasion was when Easter happened to fall when a Seventy was visiting from across the border. He gave an impassioned talk about Easter and it gave me hope - for the Mormon Church. But the next year, in my ward anyway, it was back to missionary farewells in SM on Easter Sunday. Exactly as Shannon described, not what converts familiar with Protestant and Catholic services expect or need or want.

“Getting a directive from the top to celebrate the resurrection at Easter is all you need to know about where Mormonism is on the scale of Christian belief.

“It is pitiful that they are so completely clueless when it comes to how to practice Christianity. (No offense meant to regular Mormons but the leaders leave a lot to be desired in many regards).”


Response by “snb” (quoting me): "It is pitiful that they are so completely clueless when it comes to how to practice Christianity."

“Really, I didn't know that practicing Christianity was so strict that there was a correct way to do it and an incorrect way to do it. Who decides what is correct and what is incorrect?

“If I recall correctly, Jesus never gave out instructions on what to do during Easter. So, if Jesus didn't give those instructions on how to practice Christianity correctly, who did?

“I can't remember a single time in all of the decades of Mormonism in which I personally wasn't centered on Christ. Was I doing it wrong as well?”

NG to snb:

I was referring to the SLC leaders when I said “they” don’t seem to know how to practice Christianity. I have made it abundantly clear on this board many times that I do not criticize individual members but only the leaders. In fact, other board posters do criticize members, their family, neighbours, bosses, leaders, prophets, due to their own experiences, but as a “convert” (really a “joiner” as I never converted to JS et al) I don’t have the same immersion as BICs, TBM family/friends or issues with the Mormon Church; therefore, no need or experiences or desire to criticize individual members at large.

But I stand by my considered criticisms of Mormon leaders. If they really knew mainstream Christian doctrine, much less lived it, they wouldn’t have to be sending out directives to their membership about how to celebrate Easter. They’ve had 200 years to figure it out and haven’t got it right yet. In my view, that warrants criticism. They claim to be a Christian church, yet in my experience, and that of many others, judging by the responses on the first thread, they do not make their Easter Sunday meetings any different from those of any other day.

Shannon expressed the convert experience perfectly on the first thread when she said that those with Protestant or Catholic backgrounds felt the absence of Easter in their Mormon wards. That is a criticism of the leaders, not the members.

Regarding the “practice” of Christianity, perhaps I didn't make myself clear. To me it’s a way of saying how we as Christians fold the doctrines and “practices” into our lives. Easter is obviously a big part of that. To totally not even mention Easter or the resurrection on EASTER SUNDAY was beyond explanation to me. Like someone said on the previous thread, that opened my eyes too, when on Easter Sunday one year I actually cried at church because I had “missed Easter” due to the pedestrian nature of the talks presented in SM that never even mentioned it, unlike the Protestant churches I had known.

I’m not saying that any one element needs to be present in order for the service to be right (such as the crosses and flowers and sunrise mentioned by Shannon and others) but just that it’s not unreasonable in a so-called Christian church to expect Easter to be MENTIONED on Easter Sunday. As a convert, I wasn’t totally conversant with Mormon doctrine. I didn’t fully know or comprehend their teaching on Gethsemane. It actually somewhat makes more sense to me now as to why they didn’t emphasize the resurrection on Easter Sunday.

To reiterate, when I spoke of the “practice” of Christianity, I meant the acknowledgement and celebration of Easter, not any specific element of an Easter Sunday service; i.e., sunrise, flowers, even crosses – not mandatory - but observing the fact that it was Easter Sunday in the Christian world – yes, mandatory in my book.

I also specifically mentioned in my remarks that I was speaking of the leaders, not the members. I have often stated here that I do not question anybody’s devotion to Christianity or their self-identification as a Christian – that is not up to me. In fact, I have often said that one of the most Christian people I have ever encountered was Mormon. (Of course, many of my Christian friends, at least the EV ones, would say that is not possible, but I just state my own experiences and observations even if I can’t fully explain them).

So, snb, I did not intend to say that you were “doing it wrong” and I do not question that you were “Christ-centered”, as you say. It was a statement about being a convert, who was not conversant with all of Mormon doctrine (through no fault of my own and not for lack of trying) and who had the expectation that as the Mormon Church considers itself Christian we would be celebrating Easter (and Christmas) in a way that was recognizable to Christians from other denominations.

Suffice to say, we didn’t. And I didn’t cry over the lack of an Easter egg or a daffodil but, as a devoted Christian, over the absolute absence of any reference to Jesus or the Resurrection on Easter Sunday, a time when Christians round the world get together to celebrate.

When one of the missionaries caught me in the hallway and said, “Why is Easter so important to you?” that was the moment I started to think that I had made a big mistake in getting baptized into the Mormon Church. Words failed me and I couldn’t even explain it to her. (It also severely bugged me that my EV friends had perhaps been right in their abhorrence for Mormonism and their united appeal to me to stay away from it. I thought I knew better than they did. I felt that I had been led to the Mormon Church by the hand of God, literally. That is why it was such a big freakin’ deal to me, but I digress).


The following comments by various other posters on the first thread reflect my own experiences and feelings while attending Mormon Church ward meetings at Easter time. They make a lot of the points I was trying to convey.


bona dea: “If they actually celebrate Easter,that would be news. It was just another Sunday when I was going.”

bookratt: “The fact that they felt the need to tell people it was okay to focus on or discuss the savior and not Joseph Smith, plus felt the need to tell people who run the church what Easter is for, says it all.

Cult? Who, me?”


[“snb”: I'll need to remember this post the next time I hear someone complaining about how they never hear about Jeebus in the Mormon church.”]

[NG: Not sure which post you mean, snb, bookratt’s? In any case, I wouldn’t say that exmo posters here are “complaining” about the meetings, at least not in any way that’s different from how they “complain” about a multitude of other things they experienced within Mormonism. Why is it different when it comes to explaining a lack they feel regarding the substance and content of certain meetings that are “special” in the Christian world, and to them, but apparently not so much in the Mormon world that’s inhabited by the SLC leaders?]


CA Girl: “Honestly, I've been to a number of Easter services where neither Jesus nor the resurrection were the focus of the talks. Maybe they had one Easter hymn surrounded by the usual talks on tithing, food storage, obedience whatever. So it's a step in the right direction. Unfortunately, it just shows how NOT focused on Jesus the Mormon religion is if they have to be REMINDED to talk about Jesus on Easter. It's like reminding someone to breathe when it should be perfectly obvious that it's necessary.”

[NG: These are the comments to which I responded, “Exactly CA Girl”].


bona dea: “Easter is the center of the Christian faith so expecting Christians to acknowledge it doesn't seem to be too much. I am glad your ward was Christ centered, but mine really were not.”


[snb: “I thought Jesus was the center of the Christian faith. Again, if he didn't come up with the ceremonies that we associate with Easter, then who did?

“Who exactly expects Christians to observe Easter? If it wasn't Jesus, then who is expecting this?

“Obviously my argument is that the expectation to celebrate Easter a certain way comes from people whose opinions are fairly irrelevant. Jesus never prescribed any of this and there is no good reason why we should either.

“I think it is relatively absurd that people will criticize Mormonism for not being Jesus centered and then in the same breath criticize them for not following exactly a purely and obviously man-made tradition that was never even mentioned in their holy texts.

“At least Mormons still celebrate a version of Easter. Many Puritan groups have rejected the tradition entirely. Are they less Christian because of it?”]

[NG: "Mormons still celebrate a version of Easter". This is an assumption that I found prevalent in many Mormons, including leaders, anyone I contacted to inquire about doctrines, practices, policies, etc - the assumption being that their experience is my experience. That is a human thing really, I find, and not exclusive to Mormons actually. My point is that in the ward I attended - and there is no choice about which one you go to - you are assigned geographically and that's it - they did not have any special observances for Easter, a glaring omission for the converts, if not the members].


bona dea: “It is a nearly 2000 year old Christian tradition and pretty much practiced by all Christians. Maybe they don't all do it the same way, but you will not find another church where it is ignored or downplayed in favor of another talk about following the prophet. THe point is that If you want to appear Christian following some Christian traditions help. Besides member complain. I know because I have heard them and seen them in other churches on Easter and Christmas. Whether Jesus mentioned it or whether the resurrection actually happened isn't the point. They believe it did and claim to Christians and then ignore Jesus. I see a problem here. I also see dissatisfaction on part of the members.”


[snb: “… Whether Christ mentioned it or not is relevant in this context. When one person who believes in the deity Christ is looking down on another person who believes in the deity Christ because they don't follow man made traditions I feel like they are in error."

“Assuming for a second that Jesus really was a god, the fact that Jesus didn't prescribe Easter traditions means that a good Christian shouldn't either. Do they feel like they can speak for Jesus, or that their authority is higher than his?

“It is highly illogical for them to take that position. I also find it highly arrogant.”]


bona dea: “And how do you know that the supposedly resurrected Jesus didn't say something about it that wasn't recorded? And what is arrogant about wanting to commemorate an event that is important to you anyway? It is human nature. JFK didn't ask me to remember him every Nov 22 ,but I do. You are certainly entitled to not let it bother you, but I really don't see any arrogance here at all. Mormons are also entitled to ignore Easter if they want, but my point is that they are shooting themselves in the foot by doing so and like the rest of the posters, I see some irony here. In other words, I think you are missing the point. Most of us don't go to the Mormon church any more and don't really care what they do on Easter. We are commenting on the irony and on our feelings about the lack of Easter when we were members. Maybe it wasn't an issue for you, but it was one of my WTF moments. Apparently a lot of posters felt the same way judging from the responses.”


NormaRae: “ONLY IN MORMONISM...do you need a "prophet" to tell you to celebrate Easter on Easter.”


NG:

Exactly, NormaRae. That is the point most of us were making.

I don’t think it is “absurd” or “arrogant” to say these things, any more than any other criticism levelled here by ex-members is absurd or arrogant.

I don’t see where anyone said you MUST have flowers and crosses and beaches and breakfasts. Those are just examples of how Easter is a special day in Christian churches. It’s a way that has evolved to celebrate the entire essence of the faith: the Resurrection. It goes without saying that the Sunday meeting is all about Easter - no directives from central leaders necessary thankyouverymuch.

If you’re Christian you generally participate/observe this special day in your faith.

That’s all anybody is saying here, me included. If individual Mormons hold it up as a special day, and celebrate it in their own way, and/or have this celebration in their ward meetings on Easter Sunday, that’s great. It’s just that many of us didn’t and don’t and if this wasn’t an issue there would have been no need for the announcement from SLC, which is where this all started.

My comments were meant to express my own experiences as a convert for three years, and (the lack of) Easter was a big part of me deciding to leave. I didn't intend to come across as criticizing Mormons (their leaders though, yeah, I'm critical) and certainly didn't intend to be "absurd", "arrogant" or critical of people "who believe in the deity of Christ".

I hope this clears that up.

And to be clear about something else important, I do like Easter eggs. They don't have to be at church though. :)

And, indeed, in the more fundamentalist groups of my experience, they would be viewed with horror - especially in church - as being "pagan" etc.

To me, they're just chocolate. Mmmmmmmmm.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2013 08:17PM by Nightingale.

Peggy Fletcher Stack wrote a column for Saturday's Tribune about practicing Mormons who have decided to observe Lent because they miss the Easter traditions. I tried to link it for a friend and it didn't work.If you Google Peggy Fletcher Stack/Lent it will come up. It may not have been an issue for SNB but apparently it is a sore spot for many members as well as past members.

bona, I don't feel like you weren't understanding my arguments or characterizing them correctly. I honestly couldn't care less whether someone is bothered by Mormonism's interpretation of Easter. Nor have I even given you my opinion on the matter.

You make this personal and claim that I personally was accepting of how Mormonism approaches Easter, yet you couldn't possibly know that information. This has nothing to do with me or my opinion of the faith. Also, I do not begrudge others for having problems with Mormonism.

I felt like the argument itself was illogical. I feel like people were speaking for Jesus. He himself had nothing to say about the practice of Easter.

Perhaps you were taking a more historical argument, which I find to be incredibly interesting. For 2000 years Christians have practiced Easter therefore a group that doesn't practice Easter is suspect. In that sense I think I can agree with you.

If that is the case, though, then the New Testament is semi-irrelevant in the culture of a lot of Christianity. That is also something I think could be true and interesting.

You asked me in the last thread:

"And what is arrogant about wanting to commemorate an event that is important to you anyway?"

Like I said, I think you were characterizing my argument poorly. Never once did I mention that it was wrong or arrogant to commemorate Easter.

I think most of what you assumed from my argument was invented and had very little to do with what I actually wrote.

Edit: tried to make things clearer for the reader.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2013 09:52PM by snb.

My TBM daughter is observing Lent!!!!! I was rather taken aback when she told me. I had no idea that there was something behind her doing so . . .

When I was a Mormon kid, Easter wasn't mentioned at Sac meeting.

We celebrated at home with some candy and colored eggs. At the park, the city threw an easter egg hunt. No mention of Jesus anywhere.

My childhood ward usually made a token effort,but it didn't amount to more than an Easter hymn and a few references.That was assuming it wasn't stake or General conference.In that case you were lucky if Easter was mentioned.Some.lucky years you got . fast Sunday For everyone else it a feast day and Mormons were fasting

I'm glad you don't critize individual members. I wasn't trying to claim that you were. I feel like you took a lot of this too personally. I wasn't attacking you, I was attacking the idea.

It is arrogant to think that you, me, or anybody else gets to decide how Christians practice. I'm not saying that you specifically are arrogant because I can't read your mind and I don't know if you think that.

If Jesus didn't say it, who did? If it didn't come from Jesus' mouth, then it came from a person's mouth. It is arrogant to think that within Christianity a person can speak for Jesus about what is right or wrong.

Not you, the idea. :)

NormaRae said "ONLY IN MORMONISM...do you need a "prophet" to tell you to celebrate Easter on Easter." The same idea applies here. In Mormonism the prophet speaks for Jesus. If Jesus didn't claim that the best Christians practice Easter then someone is speaking for Jesus.

You claim that Mormons have had 200 years to figure something out, yet what is it that they are supposed to have figured out? That Christians celebrate Easter a certain way and therefore they should also celebrate in that way?

Like I said, I find that highly illogical. Perhaps I'm missing the point.

"To me it’s a way of saying how we as Christians fold the doctrines and “practices” into our lives."

I think that is fine and wonderful. Seriously. I hope that the way you as a Christian practice your faith is meaningful. This is nothing meant to be personal. My only problem is that the way you as a Christian practice your faith has nothing to do with what Jesus from the New Testament actually commanded. Why criticize Mormonism based on your tradition when it isn't even substantiated with your own holy texts?

"So, snb, I did not intend to say that you were “doing it wrong” and I do not question that you were “Christ-centered”"

I totally get it, no worries. :) I meant it as an example to prove a point, not to be offended. I'm sure your intentions were good, as were mine.

I hope that makes more sense. I'm probably not being as clear as I want to be.

There is a certain simplistic beauty in the non-celebration celebration.

I didn't take it personally, snb. I am just responding to your comments as I think we did misunderstand one another somewhat. I've explained in other posts here why it *is* personal for me. I didn't feel attacked by you though. I'm glad we can talk it through civilly.

As for saying how Christians practice, my reference to that is merely that there is basic tradition and doctrine that is accepted and shared by most Christians. That includes the observance of Easter. Again, I'm not saying how people should celebrate Easter Sunday, just that in the Christian world it is expected, even by outsiders, that Easter would be paramount. Again, in my Mormon ward, it was completely absent. So, I'm not criticizing the way they observed it, but stating that they did not observe it at all. With the argument "Mormons aren't Christians" ringing in my ears from all my EV friends and associates, it was an even bigger deal for me than it would have been anyway. It was like an academic debate for me, and I was on the losing end (which was important to me at the time) as well as a personal loss that I felt from not having attended a church that celebrated the central tenet of my faith (of the "He is Risen" variety). As Scripture says "If he is not risen, then we are of all men most to be pitied" - Apostle Paul about the basis of our entire faith, and "most to be pitied" due to putting faith in something that wasn't real, if that's how it turned out.

So, I see no "arrogance" in Christians having a calendar for the seasons (of the year/symbolic of life) and having set observances for each season, as well as Christians knowing the seasons, observing the special times in the church year, and expecting the same from any Christian denomination they may encounter. It's just a way of saying here's what we believe, here's what we do about it, here's what you can expect of us.

I don't think that on this topic, major church celebrations, it is an attempt to "speak for Jesus". It is, as I have said, more a case of what is doctrine and practice within Christianity, with variations within different denominations, depending on their focus.

Also, if we could only go by words said by Jesus I'm not sure how that would work, for various reasons too lengthy to get into here (but we can another time if you want).

snb:
> You claim that Mormons have had 200 years to figure something out, yet what is it that they are supposed to have figured out? That Christians celebrate Easter a certain way and therefore they should also celebrate in that way?

I/we say that Mormon leaders are the ones who say they lead a Christian church. If so, where is Easter? It's the fact that after all this time they haven't seemed to figure it out yet that is astounding. It is so obvious that the cross and the resurrection are secondary to them because they have yet to figure out how to truly celebrate it, or celebrate it at all. As others have said, the fact that they have to send out a memo to their congregations to celebrate Easter on Easter is fairly telling. That was really the essence of the discussion. I'm just saying that you'd think they'd have figured it out by now. If you're Christian, you would want to observe Easter and would know how and when to do so.


snb: >..."My only problem is that the way you as a Christian practice your faith has nothing to do with what Jesus from the New Testament actually commanded. Why criticize Mormonism based on your tradition when it isn't even substantiated with your own holy texts?"

I'm not talking about the minutiae of Christian observances when I say "practice". I mean in general the traditions and doctrines that are considered, by the mainstream body of Christian believers (Catholic and Protestant if you like), to make up the yearly Christian calendar, so to speak. Christmas and Easter are significant dates for Christians. For active Christians, attending church and practising their faith, that would include, for most of us, the two main Christian holy days, use of scripture, and other basic times and acts that define our faith.

Again, I'm not criticizing Mormonism for the way they observe Easter but rather due to their failure to observe it at all. At least, in the ward I was assigned to attend, with no option to try a different one that may have been more to my taste, if any.

I don't see that I am criticizing Mormonism "based on [my] tradition". We're not talking about how they decorated the platform or what the congregation chose to wear that day or which hymns we sung. We're talking NO EASTER. It's not "my tradition" to observe Easter on Easter Sunday but the major observance of the entire year in the Christian calendar.


snb: >..."I hope that makes more sense."

Me too, trying to make sense, within the parameters of Christianity.

I know to non-believers none of it makes any kind of sense. That is a different discussion for another day!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2013 10:38PM by Nightingale.

I'm glad I didn't offend you. I was worried I might have. :)

So, I think for me, the thing I can't quite get beyond in the argument is the reason you are criticizing Mormonism.

If Jesus didn't hold them to the standard of celebrating Easter, why would you?

If a person believes in Jesus, but doesn't celebrate Easter, why would you consider them non-Christian considering that Jesus never commanded us to observe that particular tradition?

Due to the "Mormons aren't Christians" brigade of (especially EV) Christians I knew, the fact that Easter was not mentioned in the Mormon ward I attended was an especially sensitive topic for me (as it lent credence to the EVs' arguments against Mormonism, which I had resisted and argued against).

More than that, however, was that as a Christian, Easter was important to me and I felt I had "missed it" and it was a terrible disappointment for me, due to Christians looking forward to the celebration every spring of a central tenet of their faith; indeed the founding belief.

I remember one year especially, when I was RS Newsletter Editor. This calling actually meant that I put the newsletter together - wrote the articles, found the graphics, scrounged contributor pieces from others, did the layout and printed and distributed it. The only thing as Editor that I did not do was edit it! That was a job for the RS Prez, along with the Bishop, without whose approval there was no newsletter. This particular year I had put a graphic of Jesus on the front page with the scripture "He is Risen" above it. For once, nobody else had ok'd it due to a last minute rush and everybody being out of time. Suddenly, late on the Saturday before Easter Sunday, after I had printed off dozens of copies, I had a terrible premonition that I had done something very wrong with it (when I thought at the time that it was the end of the world if I didn't get the newsletter out on time - or at all). I frantically called my one TBM friend to ask her, "Do Mormons say 'He is Risen'"?

I thought maybe that scripture was too EV for Mormonism. A big part of the reason I didn't know if this was a "Mormon" scripture or not is that the three years I was in were not the years the Bible was being studied (you know how they rotate, one "inspired works" per year). This helped explain (as I later came to learn) why the Bible was not used during any SM I attended (except once by another member and once by me during the one and only talk I was assigned to give).

That was another time when I got a big wake-up call about the church I had joined. I asked myself why I should have to ask that question (do Mormons say "He is Risen"?) and why I didn't know the answer. Again, as a Christian prior to joining the Mormon Church, it was an important issue for me.

With reference to the discussion above directed at the questions and comments of "snb", the "practice" of Christianity that I referred to, to me, was how we incorporated the beliefs into our daily lives as well as the religious observances we kept. Easter time was when we reflected on the basis of our faith (death and resurrection of Jesus Christ) and what that meant to us in terms of what we believed - and what we did about what we believed. Our reflection included the symbolism of the cross and in the EV church I had attended (pre- and post-mo) they did have the sunrise service on the beach as well as the flowers carpeting the aisleways up to the foot of the cross. None of it was obligatory or demanded or expected or enforced but rather just the symbolism and tradition within that Christian denomination, similar to many others.

It is a day that many feel like sharing with others whose beliefs are similar and the gathering together and the air of celebration are significant to Christians.

I didn't experience any of that as a member of the Mormon Church, a big reason for me to start thinking about leaving.

There is a lot of emotion and significance attached to it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2013 09:50PM by Nightingale.

To me this is the same as the Mormons aren't Christian argument. As far as I am concerned, resemblance or lack thereof to other Christians has little to do with a personal or sect wide declaration to be Christian.

It matters little whether or not Mormons worship in the same way as other Christians, in fact it is one of their calling cards that they don't. In the instance that they do mainstream their outward devotion they will still be batshit crazy.

I have made that reference in a couple of my posts on this. It was tied in with the "Mormons aren't Christian" stance taken by my EV friends. I say yes they are, join their church, and they don't observe Easter? Gah.

For me, it's not a case of Mormons not doing Easter "right" - it's the fact that they didn't do it AT ALL - in the ward I had to attend at least. Others who responded on the first thread said this was also the case with their wards.

We're not saying that because they don't have a sunrise service on the beach or show up to church in their Easter bonnets or bring chocolates in place of cheerios to entertain their kids through yet another tedious SM meeting then "Mormons aren't Christians".

We're saying that if a church claims to be Christian it is surpassingly odd that they don't celebrate the preeminent Christian observance in any way. At least in my ward, Easter was completely absent.

There was NO EASTER.

And the only person who ever seemed to notice or care that it bothered me was a sister missionary whose query about why Easter was so important to me underscored the entire issue: Mormon Church leaders state that they are a member of the Christian family. If they want to call themselves Christian it is an expectation (not a demand!) that they would celebrate Easter, way more even than Christmas (which they also didn't observe in my ward).

That's all, for me, just mention Easter on Easter Sunday, like all Christians everywhere else in the world. I don't see that as being a strange expectation.

What is strange, to me, is a supposedly Christian church whose members attend other denominations on Easter Sunday because they want to celebrate Easter.

I think you are missing the point that we are venting about something that bothered us, not telling Mormons how to worship.I no longer care what Mormons do, but I did care when I was member because Jesus being resurrected so we in turn could be resurrected seems important enough to mention in some way .In my ward it was barely acknowledged and I felt the lack. Now I am aware that you are not a believer, but Mormons are and there is a certain amount of irony in wanting so badly to be part of the Christian club and then ignoring Easter. You have a right to your feelings and views. Where I took exception was your view that those of us who felt the lack were somehow being arrogant.I see no arrogance in saying that I wanted to have a big deal made of Easter and that the lack of such was one of the reasons I left.I didn't expect Mormons to adapt and I left. Observer, I have a right stay that this was a problem for me.Perhaps it wasn't your intention, but it seems that you were judging the feelings of many of us.

Pure venting is one thing. Claiming that mormons aren't Christian is an argument that i find interesting to analyze. Like i mentioned before, if this is a historical argument then i think people might have a point.

If the argument is about Jesus then i still feel it is arrogant to speak for him.

Why continue to assume that this is personal or has anything to do with my judgments? I certainly don't feel like it is.

Easter is a long standing,historical part of Christianity so I AM making an historic argument. I am not a believer in a literal resurrection, but I do find it a bit strange that a church that is doesn't bother to commemerate it. That is especially true since the rest of the Christian world does celebrate it in a big way and Mormons desperately want to belong to the club. I think that is ironic. My post expressed three things 1. The historical aspect of Easter. 2. The irony of the Mormon church not celebrating it while claiming they do. Hello, they had to issue a memo! 3. My personal feelings while a member on the lack of Easter and Christmas-not to mention Jesus in general.BTW, I never said Mormon s aren't Christians



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2013 10:24PM by bona dea.

You are making a historical argument. Are the other people in this discussion doing the same?

You will have to ask them.I only speak for myself. I am also making an emotional argument since I felt the lack of Easter in the Mormon church and it bothered me even when I was a little kid.

I think Bona there is a glaring difference between some of the ritualistic sects like Orthodoxy and Catholicism but for the non ritualistic sects Easter hasn't been such a big deal. The same goes for Christmas where in England it was almost a memory until the likes of Charles Dickens. For what ever reason there was a real reexamination of religious holidays in the Victorian era, they became more popular. For many Southern Baptists to this day Easter is a special Sunday service and an egg hunt.

Easter is a big deal in mainstream churches.It may not be celebrated with the pomp of a mass, but it is celebrated. Christmas was banned in England by the Puritans, but it also has a long history although it was celebrated in a different way than it is today.Christianity started because of the belief in the resurrection. Without that belief it is doubtful that the church would even exist. That is the whole point, but Mormons brush it off and make Easter just another Sunday. They don't even bother to reschedule conference or fast Sunday and they have to issue a memo to bishops reminding them to mention Easter.LOL

How could Mormons do it wrong if each sect does it differently? Mormons would say that it is a big deal to them, they just don't celebrate it with pomp and circumstance, like for example the Baptists. I get it that you wanted your Mormon experience to be more Christ centered but just because it wasn't doesn't mean that they did it wrong they just did it differently.

By the way the Puritans weren't far off, the excess does seem a little, well, excessive.

I am talking about ignoring it entirely or almost entirely. I remember sitting through a stake conference where the entire amount of time spent on Easter consisted of one hymn and an opening statement saying it was a lovely Easter morning. Wow! Then there were years that it was on fast Sunday and we were told to fast and save Easter dinner until evening. No other mention.. That was the celebration of Easter. Again.Wow! I didn't say Mormons are doing it wrong. I said it was wrong for me. I am sure some people like it. I also made it clear that as non member, I really don't care .They aren't doing it wrong. In many wards they are not doing it at all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2013 11:15PM by bona dea.

Great explanation, I have to stop now, I'm starting to feel a little queasy. I feel like I am defending Mormonism which would make any of us sick.

Lol

Growing up I didn't know any different and so our Easter activities seemed perfectly normal. I grew up in Dallas, a very Christian place and I never observed anyone acting or worshiping differently so I didn't know that Easter was a big deal. I had the great fortune to go to Rome on my mission and that was an eye opener, but to be honest the Catholic tradition seemed overly complex. I never compared the Mormon and Catholic traditions because I just assumed that the Mormon one was right.

When I learned that the LDS inc was a fraud I let it go, without regard to the traditions of others. As soon as my feelings went from I'm right to I was wrong, I adopted the attitude of why does it matter what anyone does. From my slightly evolved viewpoint it was all bunk and the comparison was useless.

I think the comparison is useless. But I do think its funny to see people scrap for the label.

I always felt, in my heart, that Mormonism ignored Christ and The Bible, but I kept it to myself. It is heartening to read that others felt the same void in Mormonism also. Often, on Easter Sunday, my TBM parents would let us miss sacrament meeting, and stay home and enjoy our Easter baskets and egg hunt, and to prepare for our dinner with the neighbors. Now I understand why. My parents raised me on the Bible, and I raised my own children on The Bible. When we were TBM, we would go to our cabin each Easter weekend, and attend the community Easter sunrise service, and skip church. On Christmas Eve, we went to the Christian candlelight service, because the Mormons have no service on Christmas. One year, when the Primary children were presenting the sacrament meeting closest to Christmas, we were given a standardized script from church headquarters. The whole program was on Joseph Smith, in honor of his birthday. There was no mention of Christ or Christmas songs. No Christmas service for the children? I was so upset, that I took myself and my kids out of the rehearsals and program, saying that our family was going to celebrate a family Christmas at our cabin, and would not be there to perform. I already knew about JS being a polygamous horn-dog.

In those days, Mormons prided themselves as not being "Christian" in the ordinary, Protestant/Catholic sense. Our fine religion did not stem from Catholicism, but had its own divine origin, which made it far more superior, far more true: it came as a prophesy from God through Joseph Smith. We were better than Christian.

I was disappointed as a Christian convert that Easter was barely mentioned, as I had thought that a church that claimed to focus on the resurrected Christ would have made Easter the most important day of the year, even more than Christmas. After all, Protestants do make a big deal about Easter, even if they don't do mass like the Catholic church does.

My thought on this--I hope it isn't too much of a tangent--is the directive shows how little Mormonism appreciates symbol and emotion outside perhaps what Mormons get in the temple and how little in some respects Mormonism is connected to the greater traditions of Christianity. I feel the same way about Mormonism and Christmas, having had experienced my first candle light Christmas Eve service just this past Christmas. It isn't the theological aspect of it so much for me as the symbolic, evocative connection Mormonism so often lacks, Easter being just one example.

Mormonism, emotionally, is as dry as dust.

Can you imagine a pope or archbishop or someone equivalent sending out a memo telling their clergy to remember to celebrate Easter? It would be like reminding an excited child not to forget his birthday or Christmas.Not going to happen.

late one Christmas Eve on TV. I had to have been in my 30s and still a practicing mormon. I remember thinking, "Now why don't the mormons do this?"