Background:

Former member with confused spouse (in-active and not TBM and searching... Our families are TBM and exert a lot of pressure including questioning my motives prior to marriage because my disaffection has occurred so quickly).

At one time I thought I wanted what the Church program offered. Now I am not so sure (to include decisions that might affect our relationship, my career, etc.).

I'm not sure if I want children or not--my spouse does. This is another sticky issue. Despite my reluctance to pursue parenthood I thought I wanted to follow the Church program so tried to convince myself that I did. Now I'm not so sure...

On the one hand it would be great. On the other, not so great. Every time my spouse brings it up I have an innate reaction of diverting the conversation to some other topic etc. This has gone on for a few months and I need to tell my spouse how I feel. It might hurt. It might hurt our relationship. I don't know. All I know is I am not ready now and don't see myself being ready for a long time, if ever...

What do you think? Did you have children? How did you know when you were ready? Did you regret it? If you didn't--how did you know? Did you regret that?

I don't have any words of advice. Just sympathy.

I don't want kids and my husband is okay with that. However TBM family is not.

Me: "I don't think I want kids."
Them: "Well you are still young."
Me: "No I really don't have an interest in having kids ever."
Them: "You might change you're mind, when you're older."
Me: "No, I really don't want to (fucking) have kids. There are other things I'd like to do with the money."
**blank stAre**

I guess what I am trying to say.. Is that I understand..

fidget Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Me: "No I really don't have an interest in having
> kids ever."
> Them: "You might change you're mind, when you're
> older."
> Me: "No, I really don't want to (fucking) have
> kids. There are other things I'd like to do with
> the money."
> **blank stAre**

Is this really how you respond? I would just let it go. I mean, hey, you might change your mind. People change their mind even about relatively major life choices, it happens. And if thinking you will makes them happy, let them. If you don't well at least they're happy now. If you do, at least you don't give them the satisfaction of having proved you wrong.

When its the same people continuously pushing and asking. Yes I am very adamant about not having them.

Also there are medical reasons that make it so I may not even be able to have kids, even if I did want them.

It becomes very taxing to be pushed on the subject.

Their happiness is not my first priority. Mine is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2013 10:20AM by fidget.

You put your finger on it with this:

"Their happiness is not my first priority. Mine is."

There are more than enough unwanted children in the world and they suffer because of it.

If you don't want kids, don't have any. Having them to please others (even your DH or DW) is unfair on the resulting children and likely to damage them.

It's all about letting people do what's right for THEM.

Go, Fidget, go !

Tom in Paris
(who has 3 children and is delighted to have them)

>>Is this really how you respond? I would just let it go. I mean, hey, you might change your mind. People change their mind even about relatively major life choices, it happens. And if thinking you will makes them happy, let them. If you don't well at least they're happy now. If you do, at least you don't give them the satisfaction of having proved you wrong.

Trying to strong arm somebody into having kids is a jerk thing to do, especially when it has serious consequences for both the parent and the children.

And what if the person wants kids, but _can't_ have them?

Maybe people could just STFU and mind their own business.

anoninnv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe people could just STFU and mind their own
> business.

Well I agree with this. I just think that deflecting it with a nonstatement with the implication, if they want to read such into it, that maybe you will change your mind in the future is probably the best way to get the issue dropped (if only temporarily). Adamantly insisting you're never ever going to have kids just prolongs the conflict.

It's not like you're going to make them learn something they don't want to know. Let them go off and think whatever, leaving you alone.

>>Well I agree with this. I just think that deflecting it with a nonstatement with the implication, if they want to read such into it, that maybe you will change your mind in the future is probably the best way to get the issue dropped (if only temporarily). Adamantly insisting you're never ever going to have kids just prolongs the conflict.

>>It's not like you're going to make them learn something they don't want to know. Let them go off and think whatever, leaving you alone.

It's pretty apparent you haven't run into these pro-breeders that so many of us have. No matter how insistent or even indifferent as you suggest, we be they will always come up with some come back. For example, and this actually happened, I had a relative who asked me when I was going to have kids. Knowing that she was the religious type, I went for the "God will decide" answer, to which she continued to insist, "Oh, but you must want children, bla, bla, bla". So, no, it doesn't work that way. It'd be nice if it did. But it doesn't.

Also, this: http://community.feministing.com/2011/11/04/10-things-not-to-say-to-childfree-people/

Thank you for posting this. I have heard every single one of those not to say things, multiple times.

My wife really wanted kids. I went along. It's fun taking them to the Natural History Museum, the zoo, the pool, etc.

Depending on where you live, The Morg isn't a big problem in Utah. TBM parents let my kids play with their kids but we live on the west side of the Salt Lake Valley.

Also, are you Mrs Anonymous Poster or Mr Anonymous Poster?

I knew at an early age that I didn't want kids. By the time I was in my late 20s, I was relieved that I didn't. I had known many underage teen moms in high school, even some in the Morg, & at that time they were dealing with having teenaged kids in junior high & high school. Now I'm in my late 30s, I actually feel so much younger than I actually am simply because I don't have kids.

I would say that being around other peoples' kids won't help you decide. Most other kids drive me insane, but not my own... it's totally different. We have three. Two have left the nest already, and I miss them. 18 years goes by very fast.

I was always middle of the road on this subject. I could have them and be happy or not have them and be happy. The one thing I did have a strong opinion on was TSCC's mantra that every woman was to be a wife and mother. Hogwash.

When I hit my mid 30's, I told my physician that I knew I was supposed to be hearing a biological clock tick, but I didn't. I told her I was always neutral on motherhood, but as I had gotten older, I wanted children less and less. That was contrary to what I had always heard - that as you got older, you would want them. She laughed and said if women find other outlets, accomplishments, purposes, etc in life then they don't need to be fulfilled with motherhood. She said in her practice she sees more and more women skipping motherhood with no regrets.

I like being around kids for short periods. I think they can be fun and entertaining, but I don't want them full time. Now that I'm older, I've said many times that I'm glad I didn't have them.

The "biological clock" is a lie. It is a nice excuse for people who had no other reason to want children and didn't want to admit they merely wanted to see what a cross of themselves and their partner looked like.

It is a useful lie for parents to tease, cajole, and otherwise attempt to push others to join them. Everyone wants to feel like they made the right decision, and persuading others is how a lot of mothers justify their own decisions.


*****
Children should come to a home where the parents really really want to raise healthy new humans, not just because "it's what you do" or "spirits in heaven are waiting" or even "babies are precious!".
*****


That whole, "You might change your mind" thing always prompts me to say, "You have no idea how condescending that sounds."
To my ears what I hear is, "Little woman couldn't possibly know her own mind. Some day an irrational whim will push all that "reasoning" right out the window."

I would not ever disclose my reasons for not wanting to procreate, because that leaves me open to smarmy "advice" on how I could work around all my well thought out reasoning. I have multiple reasons, and my spouse was in agreement before we ever met. Why would I let an outsider meddle in what's working so well for us?

"But who will take care of you when you're old?"
Well the cost of college tuition, invested now as I am doing, will more than cover in home care and then facility care when I reach that age. (Ooo the stock market could crash! Yes, and you could give birth to the next mass murderer. We all gamble in life.)
And don't pretend all children WILL take care of their parents, much less visit them in a home.

And even some of those who are sure shouldn't have kids.

This is such a hard place to be in. I had a friend at church in the same situation.

I do have kids. I followed the church guidelines for my life perfectly. I like having kids but I think I would be enjoying it more if I was a working mom. I really bought into the stay at home mom thing. Now I'm ten years out of the workforce and going a little bit crazy taking care of hearth and home. Since I've been out for so long I don't even think I could pay for the childcare we would need if I went back to work. So for now I'm stuck.

I don't think there is anything wrong with not having kids.

You might want to explore having kids outside the "mormon" box. Maybe you would like to have only one child. Maybe you would enjoy having a child and continuing to work. The church teaches that there is only one way to do things. There are actually lots of ways to have kids.

I did read a study one time that said people who don't have kids have higher ongoing life satisfaction while people who have kids feel more satisfaction at the end of their lives when they look back. So I guess that means you can be happy now without kids and bummed right before you die or you can be bummed your whole life but happy right before die. Since I already have kids I wont think about that too much. Just thought I would share in case it is at all helpful:)

As a man not yet 30 in a committed relationship, I can tell you I'm completely in the middle on this myself. Having said that, I was also against having kids until I met my S.O.

Now I can see myself being happy with kids, whereas before I couldn't stand the thought of it. So I could go either way, and my S.O. could go either way.

We talk openly about it and we're completely honest with each other. We say the things to each other that society thinks we shouldn't say, and I think that's the key.

When I was in my teens, I wanted kids when I got old enough. Then I got married and we couldn't barely afford to feed ourselves, let alone kids. When we finally got to a good financial spot in my early to mid-twenties, we decided to let nature decide. Nothing happened, so we had kinda just figured: well, that's fine. And then was surprised by an early-term miscarriage. It's been 2 years since that happened and we're both on the fence (late 20s now). What comforts me is knowing in Europe, becoming parents more around 30 is actually pretty normal. We still have a little while to decide.

You're not alone in your dilemma.

If you know for sure you don't want kids, you should really tell your SO. As terrible as it is, it may be important enough to him/her that s/he feels it necessary to find somebody else.

I wonder if talking to a counselor would help you sort out your feelings? Once you do, you'll need to let your spouse know--the issue of whether to have kids or not can be a deal-breaker. It would have been for me--I wanted children very much and have enjoyed being a parent. But if it's not for you, I respect that--and I respect those with the courage to stick to their self-knowledge and not give in to peer pressure. I wish you the best--this is not an easy decision.

I definately agree with UTM. Talk to a counselor first, decide, and then talk to your spouse. For a variety of reasons I didn't have kids. Now, I'm looking 50 square in the face. Sometimes I will get the "maybe I should have had kids blues", but it doesn't last for long. The logical reasons behind my not having kids are still there, and I go through them in my head until I feel better.

I never regretted having kids. I do think parenthood is an individual decision and that choosing not to be a parent is perfectly fine. This is one of the damaging aspects of the morg. They assume that parenthood is the norm, and I think plenty of people would have been happier child-free.

Thank you for the perspective, everyone. FYI, I am Mr. Anonymous Poster.

How do you think a counselor would help me sort this out? I am curious what kind of perspective or insight you think they can offer.

Thanks.

They know the right questions to ask you to help you determine whether or not you really want to do this.

anonymous poster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you for the perspective, everyone. FYI, I am
> Mr. Anonymous Poster.
>

OK, this may not apply in your case. I suspect it's pretty rare.

But my wife was never so hot as when she was pregnant. If I knew she was going to be that hot, we would have punked the Duggar family. But she was in her 30's when we had our first kid.

She was so hot that her gynecologist told her that I had to back off.

And then there's those times when your kids come running up to you and ignore their mom because you give Horsie rides and Airplane Rides

Never wanted kids - I raised my siblings and they're all fraking nuts. Also, this meant I didn't really have a childhood.

My late husband really wanted kids and I told him before I moved halfway across the country that this was a deal breaker for me. I loved him more than anything/everything but I *did not want to have kids.*

We had a great 10 years together - and I grew my career to a pretty impressive (to others, I still feel like a dork) level.

DH thought I'd change my mind up until his diagnosis. "Well, at least I won't leave you with a baby on your own."

never regretted it. I'm really good with (other people's) kids, I'm just really good at handing them back when I'm "done" with them.

Works well for me. YMMV

I still don't know if I am "good enough" as a mother. Kids are 29, 15 and 9. They're each different, and difficult in their own way. I do know I tried. I do know I messed up. I do know I apologized a lot along the way. I think it's EASIER with the church OUT of the picture than in. It's easier to put the kids needs first instead of accommodating the church's plan for them.

Seriously, it's such an unknown when you have a child. You never know who they will be. It's all very circumstantial how things will turn out, and circumstances can change on a dime.

My TBM ex-wife loved the idea of having kids, the attention and status, but she's not a good mother. Her first son was raised by her parents and I am raising our daughter. She is more interested in her hair.

out of the 168 hours of this past week, how many of those hours did you spend voluntarily with children?

if the answer is 0, i'd say that you really don't like kids that much.

Sounds like you could tell your spouse that you dont want any right now and you will have to think about if you ever want them and get back to him or her later. I hope he or she respects that and dosent push you. If you find you dont want kids ever just tell your spouse sooner rather than later.

I dont think there is a way to tell if you should or shouldn't. I know people who wanted a baby and why they shouldn't have became obvious after. Then there's me , never wanted any and told my husband this long before we were engaged. He harrassed me a little, unfairly since I was honest, because he thought I would change my mind after a few years. I hadnt. 11 years into marriage we got a suprise due to a birthcontrol pill failure. Gotta be careful with those antibiotics... it turned out to be an very good thing in many ways. Although I often doubt how good of a parent I am, my brother assures me the good parents worry about that and the bad ones dont.

Im sure you have your reasons, share them with your spouse. Make a pre baby bucket list maybe just to see what you want right now that wont be possible with kids. Get your spouse to do the same. Then do the lists in reverse, what you want to do with your kids and why you want one.

Wow. Thanks for all of the advice. This has been very helpful. I appreciate it, everyone. I'm going to start with a conversation about where I am right now and where I expect to be in the future with this and see where we go from there...

I have 2 kids, and it's about 1/4th of a child more than we can handle.

TBM DW wanted to have more, and we had the big conversation, and it was very painful... but you just have to be honest.

I told her that I was not emotionally capable of having more children. We talked a lot, about each of our feelings, and in the end she agreed to let me get a vasectomy.

So, just be honest. Good luck.

Keep in mind that her feelings are exactly as important as yours (no more, no less). Also keep in mind that she will likely want to compromise and have half as many kids as she wanted.

You will need to explain your feelings clearly & honestly, but likely those feelings will be the same for half as many children.

For my wife, it boiled down to 2 things that convinced her:
--Would she be ok with having a 3rd child that she knew I didn't want, or would that be a huge insecurity/resentment factor?
--If we compromised and had a 3rd child (instead of the 6 she wanted) did she think there was a good chance I would become overwhelmed/depressed?

The second one may not apply well to you, as she will have no base line (since you have no children). I do a lot of the housework already, plus I work 2 jobs, and my wife realized that she wasn't capable of increasing her contribution, so having another child was infeasible.

You wife might relate better to the emotional question of whether or not you will be capable of loving that child, or if there is a chance it will make you depressed.

In my opinion, depression trumps desire.
So my wife doesn't work, and she doesn't want to work. She tried it for a while, and it was very stressful for her. If I wanted her to work, a compromise could be part-time work... but that would still lead to the same negative emotional affects.

So too a compromise on the # of kids you might have would still result in the same negative emotional affects on yourself.

Good luck. I do not envy the conversation you will have, but hopefully you and your wife can discuss it calmly, rationally, and consider each other's emotions.

I was pretty scared at the idea of having kids, though I did feel like I wanted them so I wasn't on the fence like you are. I don't particularly enjoy other people's kids and it is a big responsibility. I'm not trying to talk you into joining the "parenthood club," but once I had a kid of my own it was so much different than how I felt about other people's kids. I have found it the most fulfilling thing I've ever done in my life, including more fulfilling than having more money (which I had for a while because, due to both fear and then infertility issues holding me back, we didn't have any kids until I was well past the age most mormons have a bunch of them already and I concentrated pretty much everything on my job. (I liked getting paid, of course, but was not personally fulfilled even an ounce by the work.)

We ended up with two. I just didn't know how much parenting was going to agree with me until I had kids of my own, and I wanted another one. Husband said we were done. My free advice (you get what you pay for and your mileage may vary) is to be sure you don't come across in your discussion with your S.O. that your feelings trump hers just because you don't want kids and she does. In a relationship, the man isn't more important than the woman and vice versa. This is kind of how much husband treated it (the one who says no more kids automatically wins) and it really damaged our relationship because of how passionately I wanted one more and he had no problem squashing that in one stomp. I think I will be angry with him on some level forever because of that, but I am trying to look on the bright side. He has been smart and has tried to make sure we can take the kids we do have (and that he did/does want) on fun trips (memory building is important to me, as is getting away from the rut of everyday life) that we really couldn't take if we had more kids to pay for. He has suggested I cut back at work to part time so that I have less stress and more time to invest in the kids we do have. This is something that has helped, too, as I could not have had that luxury with more kids. Just be sure you don't treat her feelings as not as important as yours. (And my experience with the "biological clock" was brutal. I didn't just hear it ticking; I got sucker punched out of no where, thrown around, and body slammed by it. It was painful to go through the bout of infertility with the biological clock **screaming** in my ear; none of this mild-mannered "ticking" when it came to my clock!)

If this is a deal breaker for her, even if you win the argument, you lose because she will likely resent you. Such a hard issue because the resentment could also go the other way if she "wins" and it's hard to compromise on this....you either have a kid or your don't....there's no having half a kid. I would say be sensitive to her feelings and, at the risk of sounding annoying like the people who have offended others by saying, "You might change your mind later," keep in mind that it's a whole different ball game when that kid is yours. YOUR kid is funny, adorable, etc.; someone else's kid doing about the same thing is often annoying. :) But, of course, it's important to consider that it's not fair to the theoretical kid if you know you don't want them and have them anyway. People who don't want kids shouldn't have them. This is the basic reason why I didn't fight my husband when he said "no more;" I didn't think that would be fair to the baby....something I was more concerned about at the time than it not being fair to him since at that time I was furious with him for ignoring my feelings on the issue.

I don't want kids for real, but as a gay guy I found I had to explain to many intrusive straight people why I was not married with kids. One way was to say I have no paternal instincts, no desire to spend time with kids, and no wish to subject another child to this world which hurt me.

Without fail, these people said my mind would change if I had my own kids.

I say "do you want me to risk the happiness of myself and potential children on a chance I might change my nature?" They say yes!

I came to the conclusion a lot of the people I talk to want to share the misery. Have you seen parents of pre teens at the supermarket? They're not all there. They look beaten down and old.