So here is my reply to the emails sent by my son's teacher... warning: LONG!!!

Original Thread Here: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,825085

Mrs. _____,

Thank you for following up with more details into the issues that you alerted me to today. After reviewing the matter and discussing things with DS, I respectfully submit the following for your review.

With respect to DS's treating the hat/strainer as a toy, I have addressed the issue and DS understands that this is distracting to the class and he will refrain from doing it again. He understands the expectations for students with respect to classroom conduct and will redouble his efforts to comply with school policy in that regard.

I would like to spend a little time responding to the other concerns stated in your original email. I will speak to each point individually so as to facilitate a clearer understanding of our position(s) on these matters. I apologize in advance for the length of this response but I needed to make sure that I thoroughly covered all of the points you brought up. For convenience, I have included your quotes in italics.

1. "I understand religious practices however I question his motive with this new accessory."

Implicit in ‘understanding’ others mythological beliefs/practices is the realization that the motives of an adherent are, quite frankly, no ones business. I will use the following example in each of the points of concern that I address: If a practicing Jew were to walk into your classroom wearing the Kippah ( כִּפָּה), as most practicing orthodox Jews do, would you take the time to email that child's parents questioning his/her motives for wearing the symbol of his mythology? If I insert the Islamic Burqa or the Catholic Rosary, the question would be the same.

Just because a religious practice is unfamiliar or strange, that does not warrant calling into question the motives of those who choose to follow a mythological tradition in whatever manner they see fit. Similarly, I doubt that you would ever question the motives of an 8-year-old adolescent who chooses to don white ceremonial clothing, walk into a large tub, and be submerged in order to join his/her parents mythological construct. By that age standard, DS is more than old enough to choose to wear a symbol of his chosen mythology and the argument could be reasonably made that his motives are more legitimate than the 8-year-old mentioned previously as he has made this decision free from the constant and pervasive indoctrination of his parents since his birth. His decision to wear the prescribed head piece for a practicing Pastafarian was made completely independent of input from either his mother or myself.

2. "My main problem with this is... that he... is being extremely disrespectful of other religion. He does not have the right to judge other and make comments that make them feel uncomfortable for their choices."

I asked DS about this issue and he related the following to me:

DS was walking by another student in the process of (most likely getting his bell work out of his folder) when the student asked DS: "Why do you believe in that kind of stuff? It's really weird..." To which DS replied: "That's like me saying that you believe in some hippie dude living in some heaven beyond space..."

In addition to this, DS has come home in tears on several occasions from being subjected to ridicule by several other LDS students who, for some strange reason, thought it was appropriate to promote their particular mythology and demean DS for not participating in their myth club. So my question to you is: Have you sent a similar email to the offending student's parents for his blatant discriminatory behavior and, could I please see the copy of that email - as I'm sure that you're dedicated to treating this episode with impartiality to any particular mythological construct? DS is made to feel uncomfortable for not believing in the dominant cultural mythology on a routine basis. What are you and your staff doing to ensure that no one is made to feel uncomfortable for not participating in that dominant mythology?

If I am to understand the situation correctly, DS was only pointing out an observational parallel regarding the irony of persecuting someone for their beliefs while subscribing to a mythology that is, by any objective standard, just as ridiculous as the belief system that the persecutor is choosing to single out. The only difference between the two students, as I see it, was that DS was mature enough to point out the parallel in mythological absurdity and let the whole issue rest at that - while the offending student, it would seem, is behaviorally incapable handling a conversational rebuttal to his discriminatory behavior and choose to whine about it to a teacher.

So, I propose the following: If the school is willing to enforce a rigorous exclusion of the discussion or promotion of any mythological construct in any way, shape or form on school property with the exception of observing mythology's role in a historical context, then all students can interact and learn in an environment where the potential of being persecuted (as my son has been on several occasions by LDS students - and which students have never been upbraided for their bigotry and intolerance) is markedly reduced - if not altogether eliminated.

3. "He refused to take his hat off all day in multiple classes. And in my class I had to ask Mr. ____ to help with the issue... I just need to verify that he is in fact part of the spaghetti monster religion from Kansas City."

I asked DS about this issue and these were his remarks:

"In 1st period, Miss _____ asked me to take off the hat and I did and then I started playing with it (which I have addressed with DS) and she took it away from me. At the end of the period we had a talk about playing/fiddling with stuff and then [she] gave it back to me to put into my back pack. In 2nd period, Mr. ____ told me to take it off and I did but I was acting (in drama class) so I didn't play with it. In 3rd period, Mr. ____ let me keep it on because he said that, legally, I don't have to take it off. In 4th period, I took it off myself because I was in dance class and I didn't want it to fall off. And then at lunch Mr. ____ told me I had to have permission to wear it so I went to the principal's office but he was in a meeting. So I took it off for lunch and then put it back on to go to science class which was my final period."

So if I am to understand this all correctly, the only issue of concern that I see is that of playing with the hat like a toy during class. I will point out that there seems to be some confusion as to what is or is not allowed with respect to mythological accessories or trappings (as evidenced by Mr. _3rd period_ comments), In fact, the day prior, Mr. _3rd period_ advised DS that he should wear the hat/strainer if he truly was a Pastafarian and then took the time to show his class yesterday, via overhead projector, that Pastafarianism was indeed an established religion.

While DS has grown somewhat accustom to the fact that many LDS children are patently incapable of realizing that people do, in fact, believe different things than they do; he is always confused that they cannot see the absurdity of their own belief system when it is lined up beside other equally absurd belief systems. Honestly, I believe the simplest way to solve this issue is to allow DS to wear his mythological attire of preference as you would, I assume, allow the Jew to wear the Kippah, the Muslim to wear the Burqa, the Catholic to wear the Rosary, or the Mormon to wear the temple garment.

Also, I need clarification as to this supposed school policy of verifying the membership or adherence of every student to the mythology that they proclaim adherence to. Could you please forward to me the section of your policies/bylaws/etc. that delineate this practice as I've never heard of a school, public or charter, engaging in such a blatant violation of an individual's privacy or civil liberties. If such a policy is included in your bylaws then I would, respectfully, like to receive said copy and submit it to a trusted friend of mine who is an attorney for review.

In closing I would like to state for the record that my wife and I are fully supportive of the school's efforts to maintain appropriate behavior in class. As Mr. _3rd period_ will attest to, we have been very cooperative in working with him to correct DS's distracting behavior issues when they arise - to the point of even shadowing him in class as needed. If DS persists in playing with his hat, he understands that he will not be allowed to wear it.

However, with respect to the other points you brought up, I must offer the above as my understanding of the situation and my rebuttal of certain assumptions/positions offered up in your original communiques. DS's choice to adhere to Pastafarianism and wear a pasta strainer may seem strange or even silly and many may be wont to dismiss his choice on those grounds. But, I would politely remind you that the majority population in this state adhere to a mythology that includes, among other strange oddities, the following in its lexicon of belief: Disappearing gold plates, an invisible ghost that inhabits a person's heart, atonement for sins through human sacrifice, an anthropomorphized man/god that lives near a star called "Kolob", and a myriad of other peculiarities that, for anyone outside that construct of belief, would seem equally strange and silly.

While we have taught DS to respect individuals and their choices of belief, we reject the idea that belief systems themselves must be immune from scrutiny, criticism, and rebuttal. And while DS will NEVER actively denigrate the personal beliefs of another, rest assured that if someone approaches him and attempts to point out the absurdity of his beliefs, he WILL CERTAINLY offer a simple and appropriate observational parallel in rebuttal. So long as the school does nothing to prevent LDS children (or any other myth-club adherents) from persecuting and vilifying those that don't happen to belong to their respective myth club, I will not prohibit DS from defending his right to believe as he chooses and pointing out the hypocritical absurdity of any believer denigrating the mythology of another. It's a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black and we've taught DS to treat it as such.

I hope this helps you to understand our position. Again, DS understands that if he continues to play with the strainer, he will not be allowed to wear it. And I trust that, from this point forward, my son's adherence to his mythology of choice will be subject to the same respect and treatment that other students are accorded.

Thank you for your time.

Respectfully,

Enigma.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2013 04:32PM by enigma.

Freaking Awesome!


Edit - Tell me you forwarded this to the principal, superintendent, and local news station. I want to see this on yahoo's homepage tomorrow, lol.

Seriously though, Freaking Awesome!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2013 04:40PM by ballzac.

If the administration decide to make more of an issue about it, I will go the news route.

Thank you a zillion times for this, you are standing up for other kids who have been brought to tears also.

Bravo, that was a truly wonderful response.

I assume you live in the Morridor and if so I doubly applaud you.

And the school is a charter school in uber Mormon Davis County.

My TBM brother and his wife live in Fruit Heights so I know of what you speak. I truly applaud you.

As posted below I believe a teachers head be esplodin right now and I Also believe there be an administrator or two wringing their hands quite nervously right about now.

Very nice!

Please let us know the response you get to this.

well done.

"Mr, Enigma,

Thanks again for your response. I understand your frustrations, and that you might have additional concerns that need to be addressed. I strongly encourage you to speak with administration from this point forward to express those concerns.

Thank you for your time,

Mrs. ______"

In other words...

She's not going to touch this with a 1,000 foot pole - and for damn good reason.

This will get some people's garmies in a wad for certain sure.

It will also cause some kids to stop and think about some things that the adults would prefer they don't think about.

Agreed. A fantastic father!

I love it. Hopefully it results in some discussions at the school in how to treat those around you with respect.

I love it! I'm curious to hear the response.

Loved it. Worded so carefully and painfully logical.

I just put myself into the teacher's shoes and promptly shit myself. Killer response E

Unbelievable. Amazing letter. I feel as though I've just attended a master class in diplomatic relations/human relations.

Standing ovation from me.

What is actually happening here is that you are allowing your son to disrupt the classroom, antagonize his classmates, and pretend to follow a religion that does not actually exist just to draw attention to himself. I am as sympathetic as anyone else here toward those who are trapped in areas of the country where Mormons or any other religious group predominate, but this kind of silliness is not an appropriate response. You are, basically, using your son to act out your own childish fantasies, and failing to teach him real-world social skills. This is disgraceful, and far from bragging about it online, you should be ashamed.

Don't be ridiculous. You just get your jollies raining on others' parades. There's plenty of your type here, and half of you are TBMs.

"There's plenty of your type here, and half of you are TBMs."

Again, I really think you should question everything. Do you know they are TBM perhaps because of mind powers? Do you have the priesthood and/or membership records like a bishop might?

If not, how do you know that?

I think you are partaking in a vast TBM conspiracy to make exMormons look irrational.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2013 06:57PM by snb.

Excuse you? I wasn't talking to you. I lolled at your other post, but here you go jumping to conclusions again and following me around with your agenda.

In fact I avoid replying to you unless you decide to pick apart MY posts ever since the last time you pulled this shit.

This semi anon poster is the ONLY one I replied to. Your last post amused me. This one is you playing your game again. Hope you're getting all the drama you need out of it. Must be awfully bored where you're at.

Edit for subject line.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2013 08:50PM by WinksWinks.

It was meant to be light hearted. Sorry if it didn't come off as such.

I really mean that.

Tada!

http://www.venganza.org/

religious TOLERANCE is a damn fine thing to do.

Absolutely. And if you need a colander to do it--so be it!

It's a parody created by atheists.

All religions are a parody of reality, and you know that!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2013 09:33PM by kolobian.

Because the only thing valuable is when people take this shit real.

Like Mormons.

Or Jehovah's Witnesses.

Or Scientologists.

Or Catholics.

Or Protestants.

Otherwise beliefs aren't useful. Parody isn't useful.

It's nonsense.

Like all those false religions.

+ 1

I do understand and symapthize with your frustration. Non Mormon kids do suffer discrimination and it is not right. I agree with you 100% onm that. However, I do not agree with the approach of your son or your response for two reasons.

1. Pastafanarianism is not a religion. No one believes in it and it is not sacred to anyone. Your son responding to questions about wearing a pasta strainer by saying it is the same as believing in Golden Plates IS mocking a religion. Hello, your kid did not have his religion insulted unless he really believes in the FSM, in which case you have a big problem. People actually do believe in Joseph Smith-silly or not.If your son had responded that way when his actual beliefs or lack of beliefs were ridiculed, it would be another matter, but he didn't.He provoked a comment by wearing a kitchen utensil on his head and then made fun of another kid's beliefs.

2. I am a teacher and I suspect that a kid showing up in class with a colender on his head is going to be distracting if not disruptive. I am sure there were snickers, questions etc. I doubt your son or any of the other kids were paying attention to the teacher or the classwork. Teachers have enough to deal with without silly stunts. I would have told him to put it away too and would have taken it if he refused. Whether he was playing with it or not, it would still be a distraction and in a volatile class it could be a real problem. At the very least, he could have told the teacher what he intended to accomplish and gotten permission.Then the teacher might have used it as an object lesson of showing respect.

I realize this is not going to be a popular opinion, but teachers have enough problems without kids wearing spaghetti strainers on ther heads. I understand your point, but think this was a silly and juvenile way of getting it across.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2013 06:59PM by bona dea.

Mine wasn't a popular opinion either. Let's be flamed together then, no? :)

We probably will be.I hadn't read all the thread, but I am g lad I am not the only one who thinks this is silly



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2013 07:04PM by bona dea.

ridiculed and harrassed. He was ridiculed for not being LDS, and THAT is religious harrassment and intolerance.
A point is being made here, and I think it is being made brilliantly. Best case scenario would be if it results in the school enforcing RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE and prohibiting discrimination, ridicule or harrassment based on religious faith or lack thereof.

I very clearly said that was wrong, but disrespecting another religion and disrupting class is not the way to handle it. You try dealing with a junior high class and see how you like stunts like this.

However, I still think this is a great opportunity to change that school's culture regarding tolerance.

I'm with you on this point. It is a great opportunity to address some of those issues in the school.

I hope the father decides to take that route.

I feel like they could both make a difference.

Do you expect your students to read for comprehension? You get a failing grade. Did you read the OP in its entirety? Apparently, you did not, so you missed the following:

"In fact, the day prior, Mr. _3rd period_ advised DS that he should wear the hat/strainer if he truly was a Pastafarian and then took the time to show his class yesterday, via overhead projector, that Pastafarianism was indeed an established religion."

You use the words "no one" and "anyone" as if you speak for everyone. Surely you don't claim to be the spokesperson for e.v.e.r.y.o.n.e. in the world...or maybe you do.

Please show me anyone who actually believes in a literal Flying Spaghetti Monster. Good Lord.Yes, I read the entire thread and I think it is obnoxious behavior by both parent and child.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2013 07:18PM by bona dea.

Nor is it a requirement for practicing or belonging to a religion.

That is not the issue. That's a dodge. The issue is religious tolerance, which the OP made a very eloquent and logical case for.

You really should actually read it.

What more do you need?

so wait wait.. you're telling me you're actually going to determin that people don't believe in it because it's a made up religion (like all the others) and you're going to tell me that those who profess to belong to the CoFSM aren't "sincere" in their practice? how every....*cough* mormon of you

Way to miss the point.

Boudica wasn't the one who missed the point.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Please show me anyone who actually believes in a
> literal Flying Spaghetti Monster. Good Lord.Yes, I
> read the entire thread and I think it is obnoxious
> behavior by both parent and child.

Another quote from you about religion: "Whether they are true or not isn't the point."

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,555506,555582#msg-555582

Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: July 07, 2012 10:12PM
Re: To the standard-issue Christians here: Free gift? Really?

Plenty of Christians are not and never have been Biblical literalists. Most Jews are not either.This includes Catholics and mainline Protestants.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,555506,555619#msg-555619

Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: July 07, 2012 10:46PM
Re: To the standard-issue Christians here: Free gift? Really?

Many things in the Bible were not meant to be taken literally and in fact were not. Many Jews do not and never have been literalists. Neither were the Latin Fathers such as Augustine and reformers like Zwingli. This is not a new movement. It is as old as the Bible itself.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,555506,555624#msg-555624

Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: July 07, 2012 10:50PM
Re: Diverse... Relativistic...vacuous...

Again, Dear HH, I am not religious. I just happen to know something about other religions.I have actually taken and taught classes in comparative religions. Whether they are true or not isn't the point. The point, which you don't get, is simple. THEY DON'T ALL BELIEVE IN HELL AND THEY DON'T ALL TAKE THE BIBLE LITERALLY.Now why don't ypu get lost and stop with the insults and name calling.It is childish and stupid.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2013 08:20PM by atheist&happy:-).

Well done, A&H! Brava!

As an educator, I think that it was an incredible teaching moment. Enigma's son was teaching his classmates a badly needed lesson about tolerance and humility. If people want respect, they had better be prepared to give it in return. Members of the dominant religion do not get to bully everyone else.

IT could have been, but comparing a pasta strainer with believe in God and in an insulting way and refusing to obey the teacher sort of weakened the message. I doubt anyone even got the point. They probably only saw boy wearing a pasta strainer. If he had enlisted the teacher ,it could have been a good lesson.Instead he comes across as silly and disruptive

Agree on it could have been a great teachable moment. I also see at learning on about satire as well as talking about tolerance. Kids are always going to be disruptive even if you had perfect class management. A teacher might as well make something out of it.

Teacher–The children in your class do not exist to make your job easier.

You are not the arbiter of what is appropriate or inappropriate; when it comes to freedom of expression or religion, the 1st amendment and SCOTUS' interpretation of it is.

I suggest you read Tinker vs. Des Moines and its progeny. SCOTUS clearly lays out the test for what is appropriate and inappropriate. Most importantly, SCOTUS held that a student's civil rights do not end at the schoolhouse door.

Not even the morg believe in Joseph Smith, Jr. anymore. They have manipulated their own history so much as to create a myth to worship. Pretty much everything about the 'real man' has become embarrassing to the church and they have done away with it as politically and culturally necessary for them.

If you can't control your classroom without infringing on your student's constitutional rights and you think that is just dandy, then you are not qualified to teach in a public school. If you work for a private school, supported by another one of the sky daddy myths, then your actions are simply mean and spiteful...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2013 09:23PM by Darkfem.

I think the point of this is to show then what it is like to be harassed about religion

With tbms sometimes the only thing you can do is show them

Ditto, to what you wrote! This was a "stunt" to get the intended reaction that it got.

Said Martin Luther King Jr. to the crowd.

Why do you discount stunts, and their very effective way of getting messages their deserved attention?

They make people uncomfortable and we can't have that

Or,is the parent using his child to enforce his agenda? Shrug. As an atheist, I find such antics counter productive.

Why do you not take the parent at their word? The parent swears to almighty gravity that the child acted on his own accord.

Or should the child not be allowed to chose their own religion.

You are a wonderful and excellent parent.

Enigma - I'm wondering now what would have happened if your son had worn a macaroni necklace instead of the colander.

If your son really does believe in the Spaghetti Monster (and, as you say, arrived at this belief all on his own) he needs professional help. If, on the other hand, you yourself have convinced him that acting this way at school is appropriate, you haven't done him any favors. Behavior like this will make him a pariah in every society in existence, and will lead him into much unhappiness. Do you really want this for your child, who may not be mature enough at this point to realize what poor prospects in life he is creating for himself? I appeal to you to figure out a different way of arguing for religious freedom, preferably one that doesn't use your child as some kind of pawn.

Are you saying his child would be better off acting exactly like all the other kids? No individuality? No spreading his wings? Just doing whatever makes everyone feel comfortable?

Should he be just another cog in the wheel?

For some of us, the best part of life that brings the most growth and joy is the making of waves, not avoiding them.

I say this as someone who as a child did everything I was told, did everything that was proper, kept all of societies and the church's precious rules. I Wish I Hadn't.

At the end of life, people regret the things they didn't do, not the things they did.

And that's why they should be christian.

Because Christians despise making friends with people who don't agree with them....

I urge everyone to conform with the previously established social norms that have served our society with such grace and comfort. Don't think or be different because it will make others around you feel uncomfortable. Don't raise your children to think or act different because then your children's friends parents will not want to invite you over to adult show and tell. I urge all those who are trying to effect change to cease and desist immediately because it is kind of weird. Most of all do not attack or question our most cherished pillar of society, religion, because then all of the religious folks will not want to be your friends.

I have to agree with John Wesley on this.

But until the lds parents follow his advice, then let the fun continue.

Wait, how else do you explain chinese people being so short AND consuming so many noodles? Intelligent creative design by his holiness the flying spaghetti monster is clearly evident in the 300-year old world around us. You must have sewn your eyes shut.

In the name of the Pasta, the Sauce, and the holy meatballs. Ramen.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2013 08:11PM by blueorchid.

So the parents PUT him in it?
Something smells funny

Charter schools are state supported, right? Everyone has a right to go to one? It isn't predicated along religious lines? (Like you can't go here, unless your morg?)

Brilliant!!!!

Using religion to point out irony is disgusting.

Religion is there to tow a specific line of dogma. No shades of grey.

You take your beliefs and shove them down people's throats without any sort of self-reflection or introspection.

Like a skeptic who demands others question everything, or a deist who demands respect of any faith other than the satire of one.

Religion is dogma. It's a cudgel. Never a mirror.

Beliefs are literal! To use them as anything else....

Your son is a kid after my own heart. Bravo! And your email rocks.

I made a political statement every.single.day when I was in high school. In an era when every child stood for the daily playing of the national anthem, I sat down and read a book. It was my personal protest of the U.S's involvement in the Vietnam War. And the school had to allow it.

And yes, I am well aware that many brave Americans (including two of my own relatives) have died for my right to do just that.

Outstanding.

Bravo and hearty kudos to your offspring!!

He will always remember how you stood up for him when he stood up for himself and met with pushback.

The way we decide to handle these situations can have a lifelong effect on our children. Wait until he's an adult and out thinks you. At first it's like, "Whoa." And then it's like, "Good."

I'm proud of your son.

PS to the "it's not a religion" crowd. His son could create a religion and he'd still be protected by the Constitution.