Original Thread Here: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,825204

"Mr, Enigma,

Thanks again for your response. I understand your frustrations, and that you might have additional concerns that need to be addressed. I strongly encourage you to speak with administration from this point forward to express those concerns.

Thank you for your time,

Mrs. ______"

In other words...

She's not going to touch this with a 1,000 foot pole - and for damn good reason.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2013 04:51PM by enigma.

Wow! She sure slammed down the lid on that one! She does not want to be on the nightly news over a pasta strainer. Hilarious.

Haha sounds like she's a bit nervous to proceed.

She probably read partway through and had no good answers. TBM meltdown.

Nice. Point, enigma.

Amazing letter. I'm truly in awe of your obvious profound oratorial/debating/writing skills. Your points are well-constructed and laid out quite thoroughly and skillfully. Just playing catching up here on the first thing I came to, as I've been gone for a while, but what a situation. Furthermore, what a son to be proud of!--for his foreward thinking and willingness to act in defiance of the religious nonsense he sees around him. Civil disobedience at its finest.

As I'm sure you're aware, it's a blatant violation of federal law for anyone--an employer, a teacher in public schools, etc.--to ask another to remove ANY religious adornment, icon or symbol of the individual's beliefs, be it kippas, kapps, hijabs, etc. Private and charter schools, of course, are given much more leeway on the issue, obviously. However, the PR is certainly not good for them. I hope you pursue this vehemently, for, as someone once pontificated, your cause is just.

i agree !!

The problem here is that you probably can't be 100% sure right now that your child is not the aggressor. He is clearly making the hat a distraction for other students, so that is a sign that not everything is the teacher's or the other students' fault. I deal with parents on a weekly basis who are absolutely sure that their children's side of the story is the correct side and my side of the story is made up (or even stemming from religious persecution, I kid you not). It happens all of the time. Those parents are probably mocking my grammar skills on some forum right now. It takes a thick skin to be a teacher.

The fact is that your child might be telling the truth or your child might be scared to tell you what really happened. Perhaps your child doesn't remember everything because it was an emotional moment. Perhaps the child is getting a vibe from you that tells him (her?) that bullying Mormons about golden plates might be a good idea. If this were the case you might not even know it.

My only point is that you should make sure and consider all sides before going on with your quest.

That being said, I thought your letter and your composure were excellent. Many parents wouldn't have the amount of control that you had.

It is silly that the administration has to approve the pasta strainer. Your son should be able to wear it all day long. I also feel like the teacher was being unclear by using the word "judge" to describe your son's bad behavior. The teacher needs to be specific about what exactly happened that was against the rules. Your son can judge someone else all day long, but when he insults other students it crosses the line.

BTW, if a Jewish student used a Kippah as a toy in my classroom I would call that student's parents as well. I would assume that if they were serious about their religion they wouldn't want that student to be using sacred clothing as a toy nor as a means to disrupt other students.

If the motive of wearing that article of clothing was to bother or to bully other students then it is damn well my business what that student's motive is.

Just some thoughts from someone who was in the profession for many years.

Also, I wouldn't touch it with a 1000000000 foot pole either. A parent with a (possible) misconception who is angry and has the ability to sue over religious persecution would never be a battle that would interest me. All of that coupled with the possibility that the parent has some intense preconceived (and probably incorrect) notions of me and who I am would make me nervous as well.

I'd rather meet with a parent and talk things out like adults. Rarely do parents want to do that anymore, sadly. :(

suggested he should wear his strainer hat every day.

Apparently you didn't read my post very well either because not only did I not address anything you just said, but I agree with you completely.

What exactly was your problem with my post again?

"If the motive of wearing that article of clothing was to bother or to bully other students then it is damn well my business what that student's motive is."

The motive was that a teacher suggested he wear the strainer hat every day, since he was a Pastafarian. So he wore it.

The fact that a teacher suggested that he wear it has nothing to do with the scenario I created about a student who would be bullying other students.

Your point is meaningless in this context.

Now, if you would like, we can change subjects.

Okay, ready, *subject change*

Yes, I totally agree with you. The fact that a teacher required this changes a lot of the dynamics of this situation. In fact, that teacher should be commended for being so open about it.

Agree totally.Anything distracting should be taken from a kid. That includes religious objects used as toys. It also seems like the teacher is willing to discuss the real problem which is not your son's right to wear stupid stuff to class.

No offense, but I didn't get Enigma saying his son was right and everyone else was wrong. What do you suggest he do, call in the other students and interrogate them about what they say/did/felt? There is no way anyone can have a 100% appreciation of what transpired, what preceded it, what motivated it, etc–even if he could do that.

He lives with his son, he presented his son's side of it. Do you really expect Enigma not to be an advocate for his son?

All I get out of what you are saying is you don't like conflict. That you believe that it is acceptable to trample someone's constitutional rights because their behavior makes you uncomfortable and/or you don't want to deal with it. Your simple and repeated refrain that Enigma doesn't know everything and that he shouldn't start something because of that, seems like looking for an excuse not to deal with this. It doesn't seem to me you're really interested in what is best for a child, but what is best for you.

Am I wrong?

This is the kind of ridiculous logic that educators (and I know because I was in the profession and am trying to get back in) use to be incredibly bigoted.

It's a cheap excuse to simply sweep things under a rug that people don't agree with and don't want to actually deal with as adults and professionals.

It's why boys can't wear kilts to class, and why gay students can't show any kind of outward affection.

It's why people who look different are bullied, and why adults get to look the other way.

It's much easier to just simply state - that some people believe that certain articles of clothing are sacred.

Even if the person who is wearing it doesn't actually believe. I wonder how many girls who are wearing an Islamic head scarf would rather not.

It's not our place to question the motives until we question the underlying principles of this supposed religious tolerance.

Some people truly believe that nudity is sacred.

Ok, either it's all ok, or we pick and chose. And that's a great thing to start debating. Because as soon as someone pulls the "silly" card....well, there goes pretty much every religion.

Raptor Jesus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is the kind of ridiculous logic that
> educators (and I know because I was in the
> profession and am trying to get back in) use to be
> incredibly bigoted.
>

Yes! Thanks for laying it out so clearly, Raptor Jesus. In my experience, that logic of "distraction" can get used as a weapon --to cloak bigotry in self-righteousness and uphold vague and unexamined notions of proper pedagogy. It's something worth debating and fighting for in my view.

If you read the original response, I offer my full support and cooperation in making sure that my son does not engage in any disruptive behavior. If you read the original reponse, the ONLY times it is mentioned that it was disruptive in class (by the teacher) was when he was asked to remove it and he started playing with it. Again, if you read the original response, I state that if my son cannot control himself and proceeds to continue playing with the headgear, I will prohibit him from wearing it.

The teacher may have acted inappropriately, since he/she is human, and may not have even consciously recognized his/her religious bias. I think your letter was very appropriate, but if he/she corrects the situation (and the strainer is no longer used as a toy), I'd just let it go. Some people very close to me are teachers, and I'd just hope for some slack for someone doing a very difficult job. It's hard to always do the right thing in the spur of an irritated, emotional moment! If discrimination is a repeated problem, of course, I take it all back!

I think you handled it all very well! I hope that solved conflict.

She sounds, put in her place.

This whole saga needs to be combined and put in Short Topics.

Well, the teacher is doing the sensible thing and kicking the problem upstairs. That's why they pay administrators the medium-sized bucks. ;-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2013 09:23PM by summer.

it's a charter school in utah. they can do whatever they like.

i agree with the french, keep all religious clothing/accessories OUT of the classroom.

question: if this type of thing is so important to you, why send your kid to a "Very mormon charter school" in the first place?

in any case, i appreciate this post for reminding me why i would never want to be a teacher.

They are funded by the state.

They need to be reminded of the separation between the two in spite of the cultural majority.

The problem is that kids don't do their bullying or religious harassment in front of the teachers and the kids often do not report it.Instead of sending his kid to school wearing a pasta strainer, the OP needs to visit the principal and if that doesn't work take legal action. I am assuming that this is real harassment, not childish squabling and that the OP's son is the innocent part.The first thing to do is to determine exactly what is happening and then complain and complain loudly until something is done.

Again, stated in the original response; my son NEVER actively denigrates the beliefs of another. He has only ever responded to the short sighted individuals who left their brains at the door and decided to single him out for, what the felt, was a bizaar practice - forgetting the fact that by any objective standard, thier mythology was equally bizzar. My son is a very intelligent but kind individual and will often stick up for those that cannot defend themselves. He's been targeted and conversationally taunted for not buying into the bullshit mythology that his peers lap up like dogs and now HE'S supposed to NOT do anything to counter that in a non-violent way??? Really? Is that what you want to teach children - to take baseless criticism and hypocritical hyperbole lying down and NEVER offer an intelligent and pointed challenge? For the folks thar are advocating this posotion, why are you not still Mormon? Following your logic, leaving the Church is nothing more than a silly stunt designed to disrupt the cultural norm. Your reasoning is flawed.

The only instances of classroom disrupotion (according to the teachers AND my son) occured when he was told to take the strainer off his head and he proceeded to fiddle with it like a toy. Again, if you read the original response you would have seen that I mentioned that we are dedicated to cooperating with the school in making sure that my son does not actively disrupt the classroom environment. There was NEVER any indication from teachers or the administration that the act of simply wearing the strainer disrupted the classroom. And I fully supported the teacher in cooperating with efforts to curb any playing with objects during class time that could cause a disruption. Again, please read the response where I state that if my son cannot control himself and continues to play with the head gear, I will no longer allow him to wear it. As for my son refusing to remove the strainer when the teacher told him to, he was basing his decision off of what his English teacher told him (again, in the original reponse - if you would take the time to read it): I.E. that no one can legally tell him to take it off and that he has a right to wear it. And... if all things are equal, if a Jew can wear a Kippah then my son can wear a strainer. Both are equally rediculous.

And finally: Again, as stated in the original rebuttal, my wife and I do NOT teach our son that mythologies are exempt from scrutiny, criticism, or rebuttal. We do teach him that people are free to believe what they want and, so long as their actions to not infringe upon the rights of others, that he should defend and champion their right to do so. However, we have told our son in no uncertain terms that he has the right to defend himself and point out hypocrisy and inconsistency (to be a skeptic as some have mentioned here) if someone is foolish enough to cross him.

he said it was a mormon charter school. i'm assuming he means its a cult sponsored charter school.

i'm against the damn things (charter schools) myself exactly because they receive public funds, but don't have to follow the law like public schools do.

They can be a cultural majority, but a charter school can't have religion as an emphasis if they are public.

They still have laws to follow for funding.

And while I understand where you are coming from - sometimes having a vocal minority is a nice reminder that the majority needs to calm the fuck down.

i thought that charter schools were largely unconstrained, but apparently i'm wrong. it happens a lot.

while i hate the cult as much as anyone, i think that wearing a colander on your head in a school classroom is disrespectful to the teacher and the other students who are trying to learn something. his point could be made just as effectively by wearing the colander between classes, at lunch, on the way to and from school and etc.

dad admitted that son wore the colander selectively, and even got in trouble for playing with it in the middle of class. i think it's kinda bizarre that this board has made him the exmorg rosa parks! lol

I never stated that he wore the strainer selectively. He wore it the whole day and complied with teacher's requests to remove it up until the point that his English teacher said that no one could legally tell him to remove it. At which point, he resisted compliance in the class period directly following english.

As for his playing with it after removing it; I completely sided with the teacher and offered my full support. If he's going to wear it, he can ONLY wear it and never tamper with it... any more than a Mormon never tampers with their garments to get a wedgie out.

you have a lucky son,

his dad buys all his bullshit...

I HATE THE CULT SOOO MUCH THAT I DON'T LIVE IN A STATE FULL OF MORMON CULTISTS. I'M NOT ON THEIR SIDE.

that having been said, garments are supposed to be worn under your clothing. your son wore a colander on his head. that is distracting to others who shouldn't have to deal with your son's 2 week long infatuation with an internet joke while they are TRYING TO LEARN and while the teacher is trying to teach a class full of 12 year olds.

why can't he wear it OUTSIDE OF CLASS TIME?

and why do you and your son think that the final word on legal issues comes from 7th grade english teachers?

Uh... nope... wrong again. You have no idea how often I call my son on his bullshit. It is a daily occurence and I am constantly reigning him in when he does things that are out off line. However, in this case, after much discussion on the subject with him and pressing for points of clarification with his teachers, I agree with some of his positions and agree with the teacher on others.

Your polarized, black and white thinking on this subject is fascinating. You would fit very well within the belief lexicon of Mormonism. I suggest you give the missionaries a call and set up a discussion.

Sigh... and again, I must point out that the actual wearing of the head gear was never a point of distraction itself. Nowhere is that stated by the teacher or my son. His playing with the head gear after his teacher told him to remove it was the point of distraction - a point upon which I totally supported the teacher. You REALLY need to read the original response.

How many times will you repeat yourself before you give up on this stonehead

Wow, you crossed a line
If I was enigma I would be insulted by your unbased, and completely false representation of his family

Dick

well DICK,

you know what they say...

everyone has an opinion and an


ASSHOLE

Well somebody is making an ass of themselves

Yes you can have your opinion, that doesn't mean you have to go around imposing it on everyone else

These kinds of shenanigans can actually damage the cause of encouraging religious tolerance and questioning dogma. If people see that it's only attention-seeking clowns with poor social skills and no respect for others who are promoting these ideas, they're naturally going to be turned off and stop listening.

It would be a lot more valuable for this kid to learn how to keep his mouth shut and get along with people when he's a minority than to be encouraged to make scenes and alienate people. That won't fly in the workplace when he's older, and the purpose of the long human childhood is to learn such realities, like them or not.

And why we give such deference.

But as long as people shut up and not step out of line - they'll be useful to society.

I understand about not fitting in. I understand about being pressured to go along with the group. I'm also an adult who understands that you have to cultivate social skills, and deliberately provoking arguments is not going to help this kid support himself someday when he's on his own. Acting in my own self-interest to make my life actually WORK is not going along with the group. It's knowing how to pick my battles and use my rational mind to avoid bringing unnecessary trouble on myself.

But you keep telling him to conform.

but it appears that the dad is the one fighting it.

+1000 good grief

for me it's also about consideration for those who are in class, trying to learn algebra, and have to endure that stunts of an overindulged kid.

Or any girl held hands with another girl.

but IMHO, neither gay or or straight kids should be holding hands in class. it's distracting and makes it nigh unto impossible to take notes!

The "distraction" argument was used to discriminate.

And the kids who tried to set up the gay and straight alliance were called "overindulged."

Sure. I would like to have seen no religious attire. But that would be infringing on a pretty big American Ammendment.

So, I find it more helpful to try to make things fair in another way.

you suck.

the narrow point that i've been trying to make is that there are PLENTY of opportunities to make this point, WHICH I SUPPORT, BY THE WAY, without doing it in the classroom.

it just my fucking opinion, goddamnit

but don't let me stop you from trying to make this gay guy the enemy of the gay school kids.

insane

What the hell is wrong with you!!

"Kids shouldn't hold hands because its distracting" why cause your jealous??


What makes it so difficult for you to concentrate when people are not even activly engaging you?

By that logic there will be 'distractions' in the classroom regardless of what any teacher does


By that logic people like you should go to a special school so you van be taught individually by robots as to not be distracted

Yep... because every menaingful societal change occured when people learned to bow their head and say yes.

Don't see it as a straw man at all. The original post that I replied to refered to my son as an attention seeking clown and that he should just shut his mouth and be a good little robot so he can find a job somewhere in some corporate monstrosity and be a good little cog in the machine.

Conformists do not prmote social change on the macro or micro level. They simply perpetuate established cultural norms and mores. My son did not reach this decision casually. He put enough thought into it to articulate his position logically and rationally. And I agree with his position.

And I will never teach my children that their purpose in getting an education is to learn to shut their mouths, keep silent, never demonstrate or call attention to hypocrisy or inequity, and just 'get along'. I might as well have never had kids if all I was going to do was tell them to shut up and 'keep sweet' for the sake of getting along. If I wanted that, I'd have stuck to just getting a dog.

+100000000

How is that a similar comparision

This is simple humorous provocation of thought

Hardly possible martyrdom