Any time I've ever debated a theist, the end result is that what they claim to believe at the end of the debate in no way resembles what they claimed to believe at the beginning of the debate.

I've also never met a christian, meaning someone who actually does what jesus said to do.

I've never met a muslim who is actually in 100% compliance with the kuran.

I think people like to pretend to believe in religions but when push comes to shove I don't think they really do. It's lip service.

By that standard, any pastafarian is as devout as any christian.

Also, by that standard, any pastafarian is as delusional as any christian.

...which might be the point the pastafarian is making. :)

Unless they believe it ;)

Ramen.

I prefer to worship the 12 gods of Kobol.

So say we all.

Marduk is real.

Bow!

Great point. I have never met a mormon who didn't rearrange their religion in their minds to suit themselves, which is also a very human thing to do.

So in any discussion, if you hold them strictly to the tenets of their church's teachings, it plays havoc with their personal concept of what their church really is.

I have quoted from the doctrine and covenants to family members without revealing the source, and I have been informed that I am mistaken. I said nothing.

They don't allow themselves to doubt though, they just assume you are wrong when you quote their own church doctrine to them.

My theory of why many of us are here on RFM enjoying the fruits of our apostasy is that we were the few who did not rearrange Mormonism in our minds to suit ourselves. We took it at face value and expected it to hold up as such.

"We took it at face value and expected it to hold up as such."

And it didn't. That is a huge part of my story.

Well said.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one.

This is exactly what I have experienced...I took it at face value full bore...I was a 100% hometeacher when those that argue with me now hardly do it if ever but they will go to the mat defending their version of Morgism...They are shocked that a an EQP could fall so far so fast but I took this SH*T seriously and THAT is why I reject it so fiercely now...

I your experiences with members of these various religions,
did you encounter any that impressed you as being honest
or commendable?

Were all of your interactions in this regard negative?

Did anyone live up to even one important moral, or
social, or fairness principle they were advocating?

I've only met one devout lawyer in my lifetime, but
she was truly devoted to the notion of seeking justice
for her clients. I might generalize and say that
attorneys are hypocrites, but I encountered at least
one who was/is better than that.

Your thoughts?

UD

<<I your experiences with members of these various religions,
did you encounter any that impressed you as being honest
or commendable?>>

If we're speaking of honesty in relation to religious beliefs alone, then no. I've never met anyone who was honest about their religions. Employing logical fallacies can be an honest mistake, but when they continue to use them after the fallacy has been demonstrated I call that a lie.

Commendable? I've never met one single person who did anything commendable that couldn't have been accomplished without the religious or theistic belief attached to it. So again, in relation to religious beliefs alone, no.

<<Were all of your interactions in this regard negative?>>

No.


<<Did anyone live up to even one important moral, or
social, or fairness principle they were advocating?>>

Sure, but if my religion is the belief that I must eat jello, go the speed limit, and pay my taxes, and I have a suspended license for speeding, I can't very well claim to be a believer in my religion no matter how much jello I eat.

Your experiences seem to have led you to different
conclusions than mine have for me.

It's been a mixed bag, in my experience, ranging from
pretty bad to very good.

I'm rather happy that we elected a Buddhist senator and
a Hindu state representative. I'm looking forward to
seeing whether or not their "different" religious
backgrounds make them any better legislators than
the typical Judeo-Christian politicians we deal with
here in the islands (our last Governor was Jewish).

I can only hope that a few of your future interactions
with theists and religionists work out a little better
for you -- or, that you at least come across some
of the enjoyable interactions I've encountered.

UD

I believe my religion. I'm Buddhist, which hasn't got a deity. That make make believing easier.

MCR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I believe my religion. I'm Buddhist, which hasn't
> got a deity. That make make believing easier.


We have a lot of Buddhists here in Hawaii. Their kids
attend our public schools and the parents work in our
local businesses. I've never heard of them causing any
unusual trouble. We have a lot of domestic violence
herein the islands. A police officer who spoke at a
community workshop I attended, mentioned that this
social problem is "minimal" in traditional Buddhist
households here in the Hilo area.

On the other hand, one of my Peace Corps friends was
mugged in Buddhist Sri Lanka and I was once cheated
in a restaurant in Buddhist Thailand.

UD

I truly believe that if I weren't for me, I would be fucked.

Nobody is listening to me, except me.

So I better do what I can to save myself, because there really isn't anybody fucking else.

And that's the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

So help me.... Me?

Raptor Jesus?

I would give the Heaven's Gate folks top marks in the belief category.

Me too. And it's not at all because they killed themselves. It's because they packed their bags.

Literally, their suitcases were next to their beds. They weren't just bailing out of this world. They thought they were going somewhere.

I think that some portion believe in their deity with a disturbing amount of conviction. I think when you get to the dogma most aren't even sure what they are supposed to believe. In the end I think what many are doing is hoping, and the rest are just treading water.

jacob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think that some portion believe in their deity
> with a disturbing amount of conviction. I think
> when you get to the dogma most aren't even sure
> what they are supposed to believe. In the end I
> think what many are doing is hoping, and the rest
> are just treading water.

That was certainly the situation for the kids my wife
and I used to teach in Nepal. They had little idea
what their religion was really about, or what it was
based upon. Just about all they knew came from
imitating their parents and older siblings. And most
of those same parents were illiterate and rarely
received any organized religious instruction. They
barely knew what to make of the gifts, when I solicited
some contributions, to put copies of the Vedas and
Upanishads in the village school's tiny library.

But I was impressed with their sincerity in respecting
the sanctity of life. They were truly saddened when
they mistakenly stamped the life out of a little
lizard on a farmland pathway, or had to kill a family
goat that had broken its legs.

Little things like that impressed me. Even in their
ignorance, I think they ran a remote mountain village
with more toleration and more common sense than the
USA's Christian hillbillies might do, given the same
resources and challenges.

UD

It's no secret that people's behavior does not always conform to their beliefs or ideals. That's a different topic.

I think that most religious believers actually store specifically religious beliefs in a different "spot" than other kinds of information, because they know there's a difference. Even as a small child growing up hearing Bible stories in a fundamentalist Christian home, I never thought of Noah's ark as a fact in the same way I knew my name or age or some other easily proven fact. If someone had asked me if I "believed" the story, I would have said yes, but I still experienced that kind of "truth" differently from objective fact. Many people may not be aware they're doing this, but they're still doing it.

I think that's why we don't get anywhere arguing about "facts" with Mormons. They already know they don't believe it in quite the same way as other facts, but they're trained to ignore that and never admit to it. Some of us need the world to make literal sense, and we're the ones who end up evaluating "religious truth" on objective grounds. I'm not sure that's necessarily a gift, because there are other, non-religious elements of human experience that don't make literal sense and can't be proven by objective means, and we may waste a lot of time and energy fretting about those instead of living our lives.

There's a difference between the rationalizing that people do to
justify their non-compliance with their religion and admitting
that one is weak and not perfect.

baura Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There's a difference between the rationalizing
> that people do to
> justify their non-compliance with their religion
> and admitting
> that one is weak and not perfect.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to have been
Wesley's starting point, in organizing Methodism around
agreed upon practices, rather than strict adherence to
an iron-clad set of doctrines.

Oh, united Methodists today still profess the Apostles'
Creed with an obvious sincerity -- but as individuals they
find ways to soften its harder doctrinal edges. As
individuals they're prone to admitting that they'll
always be kneeling in need of forgiveness, braces they
cannot perfectly obey the Old Testament religious laws.

UD

There are a few people who actually believe in their religion. These people are commonly known as "fanatics," and are generally regarded to be mentally unbalanced.

So that would be my christian friend who is working for the next 5 years - without pay - in Addis Abbaba, Ethiopia in setting up a teaching hospital and working to endow its neurosurgery program so that it can sustain itself?

That fanatic is giving of himself - at great personal cost - to help what will probably wind up being thousands of his fellow humans by giving of his medical and surgical expertise as well as doing what he can to provide a much needed resource in their community.

He's one of the most devout, believing christians I know.

They do exist, you know.

None of that has to do with being a christian. A jew, muslim, pastafarian, or atheist could just as easily do the same thing.

The real question is: has your so-called christian friend sold all their possessions and given the money to the poor?

That would be my parents. They LOVE the mormon church and everything that includes. They Love the rules, the leaders, the buildings, etc. etc. They LOVE it all more than they hav ever loved any human being they've known. They love it more than themselves, each other, their children, or any living being.

They LOVE the mythical people of their scriptures, but fail to love the people in their life. Over the years their misplaced love has made them mentally unbalanced.

I think you and I have the same parents.

I know my one remaining TBM friend really, really believes it.

I believe in the fridge, and have better proof of it caring for me.

A) it hums
B) my drink is cold