This is what happens when you have a cult where no one has any sort of theological training. (Aside from maybe a few members who might have studied theology at non-Mo universities.) The sick thing is that they're proud of it. They're so proud of it that they dismiss even CES most of the time. The few that don't think CES is the same as something like catechism. What pathetic delusions.

It is sad when a group takes pride in their ignorance. Men with no training giving bad advice and ruining people's lives.

Bishop Jensen, I know you ran a successful chain of shoe
stores in the Intermountain West for years, so I've come
to you for help. You see, I have this uncontrollable urge
to kill my children. Last night I got out a knife, and...

Bishop: "And, pray tell, Orson, what then? You didn't do
anything unworthy of a member, did you?"

Well, Bro. Jensen, there was a lamb, caught in the hedge
that separates my farm from my neighbor's farm, so I took
the knife and slaughtered the lamb. Was that what God
wanted me to do?

Bishop: "Reminds me of the time, at the shoe salesmen's
convention in Denver, when the cook substituted lamb for
pork in the advertised dinner menu. I mean, yeah, some
of us were a little peeved, but I'm sure Heavenly Father
accepted our prayer over that meal..."

Thanks, Bish... I don't know what I'd do without you. I
feel so much better. Well, I've got a knife sharpener
I gotta go buy... See you at Sunday meetings.

there is no intellectual tradition in the church. religion classes at the cult's university are purely devotional and therefore completely useless. mormon intellectuals are called exmos.

I was even called a 'thinker' & 'intellectual', like it was a bad thing. :/

Me too. Thinking was not encouraged, to say the least. God forbid your were educated & and read the classics. Didn't go over well.

Mormons often criticize faiths groups which require a bachelors, and or a Masters degree to become a clergy leader; yet when Mormon cklergy speak in the presence of educated people they sound juvenile.

This aspect of Mormonism is absolutely unfathomable to an outsider. We seek out the most educated and learned people we can find to lead us. All of our pastors studied the Bible in the original languages and are familiar with history and criticism going back centuries.

presbyterian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This aspect of Mormonism is absolutely
> unfathomable to an outsider. We seek out the most
> educated and learned people we can find to lead
> us. All of our pastors studied the Bible in the
> original languages and are familiar with history
> and criticism going back centuries.


Actually, it is fathomable, if you look into the very early
history of the sect, and at its first converts. Many of them were
people who had left other denominations in disgust -- they did
not like their ministers and "priestcraft" (as they said) -- they
wanted a fellowship without man-made creeds -- without bosses
telling them what to do.

And others were rejects, who could not find a home in any of
the sects -- except maybe among the Campbellites, who would
baptize and confirm anybody, no matter how unorthodox or
weak their conversion experience might have been.

The first Mormon leaders spoke right to these leavers and
losers -- telling them that they could henceforth get along
just fine, without religious bosses, telling them what their
religion ought to be.

Couple all of that with the fact that the vast majority of
early Mormon converts were dirt poor. They expected to
improve their lot by joining a community apart from the
world they had previously known -- to have "equal rights"
with more successful, better educated, more capable people
who were "lording it over" them -- federalists and upper
middle class Americans who seemed to "have it all."

From the very beginning, there was a resentment build into
Mormonism -- an "us-against-them" attitude, in which
experience and training in the Gentile world was evil --
and education in a Gentile seminary or college was suspect.

Those were not the sort of converts who wanted to have a
learned cleric read to them out of "Clarke's Commentary"
on a Sunday morning. They'd throw rotten eggs at any
would-be evangelist who threw a Greek word or two into
his erudite discourses.

A lot has changed in Mormonism since those early days,
but enough of the Brigham era traditions remain to have
Mormons distrust and avoid any non-Brigham Young University
religious training. No need to pay out salaries to an
illiterate and ignorant "one true priesthood."

UD

One day many years ago, my TBM mom was talking to me about her friend's parents who were both pastors, & had advanced theology degrees. They had been pastors at traditional, old Protestant churches. My mom went on to say that they had been pastors at different denominations, & went on to say how stupid she thought it was for pastors to go back & forth like that. She said that people like that should figure out what they believe & stick with 1 church, & that it was stupid for people to change churches like that. I told her that maybe they just liked the different congregations they were the pastors of, regardless of what denominations the congregations belonged to. I was very irritated with everything my mom had said because she actually knew these people. I had never met them though.

The first time I ever talked to a Catholic monk I was overwhelmed. I told him every doctrine I could recall from Mormonism, and he shot every one of 'em down with reasoned responses. He was working on his PhD in theology.

His intellect was far beyond any thing I'd ever encountered in the IKEA chapels of my youth. He was astonishing, and I have never been astonished by anything any Mormon has ever said.

Obviously, theological standards for Catholic men of the cloth are stratospherically higher than those of the corporate schmucks of Mormondom.

Certainly not the same thing but today I watched "The American Bible Challenge" semi-finals and a Mormon team was not on the show. Don't know if there had been one on this season.

Mormons don't even say the word "intellectual" without adding the prefix, "so-called."

That's right.

I think it's partially because Packer specifically targeted feminists and "so-called" intellectuals, and gays as the "threats" to TSCC.

My husband was BIC, did the whole Eagle Scout/mission/marry in the temple thing. He is a devout believer, and probably the most intellectual Mormon I have ever met. His HT has referred to him as "an advanced scriptorian." He can quote Mormon and Biblical scriptures, chapter and verse, as well as a properly trained clergyman.

My husband believes that there is great depth to Mormon theology as it was originally developed by JS. He loves to read about and discuss religious topics. He loved Institute classes in college.

But during the Hinckley years, they "dumbed down" talks in Sacrament meetings and teachings in classes. They never discussed anything in depth. It was like being in graduate school and then suddenly being sent back to first grade.

DH remains a devout believer - but he got so sick of hearing the same things over and over: pay your tithing; obey the Word of Wisdom; don't criticize the bishop, and above all, don't THINK. He feels that this is massively disrespectful of the gospel. He WANTS to think about it and discuss it, but in DEPTH. Like, what are the possible symbolic meanings of this or that? How is the BoM similar to the Bible, and how is it different, and WHY is it different?

But thinking seems to be out of style these days in TSCC. This has cost them at least one true believer.

What good are theologians in mormonism when you have prophets saying 'we don't teach that' or 'he was speaking as a man'? Many of the "prophets" were swayed by the times they lived in. But will the church every admit that? No, because they would have to admit JS, BY and others were making it up as they went along.

The board has discussed the problems with the BOM and BOA more than I ever heard in church.

dk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What good are theologians in mormonism when you
> have prophets saying 'we don't teach that'...

That was one of the ironies evident when the Reorganized
LDS established the leadership position of Resident
Theologian. His function was, in the beginning, to act
as little more than a human encyclopedia. But independent
thinking leads to inevitable tensions between prophets
and philosophers.

Interesting that it was the Community of Christ Prophet
who ended up resigning, and the theologian who remained,
to whittle away at the church's Mormonism.

Two years of theological training in a mainstream
graduate seminary was a heady experience for this young
Latter Day Saint. That education, and three bucks, can
score a cup of coffee at Starbucks -- and not much else.

On the other hand, paid theologians can be a problem too.
They have to do something to earn their pay checks, and
the results can be a cure worse than the original disease.

Make the theologians take a vow of poverty. That may help,
so long as there is no pope assuming the role of thought
regulator.

UD

I see FB quotes often from TBM's and they're ALWAYS from GA's and the like, never Shakespeare, Ghandi, Confucious, Aquinas, Jefferson, etc.; it's a completely closed system. As far as theological thought, it feeds on itself, and the only "deep" discussions" I've seen quote from LDS sources. The only time I've seen non-church people quoted is when apologists try to cherry-pick other religious thinkers' writing to support their doctrine, i.e. the use of the name "Lucifer", which is a big mistake, but apologists have tried to show it was used in the early christian church.

What can you expect from a church bases claims for its scripture's validity on the fact that its restoring prophet was "unlearned" and had very little formal education?

TSCC glamorized the idea of uneducated, marginally-literate leaders from backwoods backgrounds for a very long time.
Now, even though times and cultural norms have changed, they're stuck with bizarre, indefensible doctrines, embarrassing history, and faith-destroying lies and cover-ups perpetrated by these rubes.

The only way they can continue to operate is to continue to glorify ignorance, threaten critical thinking, and sweep inquiring minds under the rug.

You're right, even the temple narrative ridicules theological learning as priestcraft (or did.) The men who write Mormon books are often seen by members as learned, but those books are often just fluffy faith-promoting pap.

I tend to discredit theology from a different angle though, thinking of it as more or less a detailed study of the "emperor's new clothes." It's subject is imaginary, but I can respect it as I would the study of literature or mythology.

What the lay clergy really need in Mormondumb is at least some uniform training in social work and mental therapy. This sort of thing is included as an add-on to the theological studies of most creeds. TSCC naturally attracts converts who are "poor in spirit," i.e. in need of counseling. And BIC members are often in need of it too, as the faith naturally leads to mental imbalance in not a few.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2013 05:45PM by rationalguy.