Does anyone have experience with temple attending true believing Mormons (TBMs), and the TBM theories on the real meaning of the temple ceremonies?

I've been to the temple dozens of times on my mission and afterwards, but the only "meat" I've gotten in hushed Celestial room conversations is that as you continue to go to the temple, knowledge and understanding will come.

What are some TBM (faithful Mormon) explanations for the signs, tokens, etc, that they talk about in the Celestial room but you would never see in the Ensign or a sacrament meeting?

My mission president told me the temple is all about the atonement. How do they figure the temple is all about the atonement?

Any long time experienced temple attenders on this board care to share their own previously held TBM views on the temple ceremonies?

Do any TBMs really believe they literally give the signs and tokens to angel sentinels as they approach the Celestial kingdom? I never believed this was literal, but also never understood the figurative meaning of passwords and secret handshakes.

My own theory is that the average temple attender is so mystified by the temple that they believe there is no way it could be false. It is so strange, ritualistic, and secret/sacred, who would dare make this stuff up? That was my only lifeline when I was trying to make sense of it.

I first went through the temple in 1976 before most of the big changes to the ceremony. Unlike many who have posted on other topics similar to this one, I mimed the signs and tokens and death penalties and it didn't bother me. I don't remember even thinking about doing the death penalties but just doing them. As far as the special clothes, robes, tiogas, bakers caps etc., well I thought that was just strange crap but did it anyway.

What I was taught, in secret, was that the signs and tokens used to pass through the veil into the celestial room were things we would have to do to enter the celestial kingdumb. That we would meet an angel and have to give those signs and tokens to enter, then after we were through we would bring our wife through using the same signs and tokens. I was told that the whole thing was to prepare us to enter the CK and if we could not do them correctly we would not be allowed entrance into the CK. That was also the reason for going on a regular basis, so that we would have them memorized and be able to do it when it really counted.

This is why, when the corporation of the morg changed those signs and tokens I knew the morg was not true. How could something that important change? That was when I left the morg in my heart but it took me many more years to actually leave physically.

I thought/fell for the same thing.

This is a broad topic, mostly because the church lets/encourages rumorville on this one. That way they can get any possibly deep (albeit accidental) meaning, without the responsibility of tying themselves to an explanation that can later be debunked.

I hail from Idaho & Wyoming TBM farmer stock. They tend to be hard-core TBM literalists.

So I did literally believe you would give the tokens & signs to the sentinel angels... but I always assumed it would be ceremonial in nature, and that righteousness would cause the spirit to either make you remember them, or give you a stupor of thought if you were not righteous, and therefor you could not pass those angels.

Here are some of the "deeper" meanings.
===What I Guessed, & later heard others repeat (or opine separately)===
--The name of the last token ("health in the navel, marrow in the bone, etc...") isn't given until you are at the veil. This is because it is only a place holder. You will repeat the ceremony at the real veil, and you will say that you don't know the name of the last token, because it hasn't been given to you. At that time, god would ask you some personal question that you would answer (or perhaps a phrase to repeat back to him, that would solidify some teaching in your mind, and make you realize-&-agree-with whatever judgement was doled out). The sign for this token was the "Oh God Hear the Words of my Mouth" bit, which wasn't a standard "name" like the others had, which further made me think that this one wasn't about rote memorization, but actually conversing with God.

--The fig leaves were worn as a reminder that the natural man was an enemy to god, wicked and satanic in nature. We had to remember that we'd given into Satan before, and so we didn't remove the fig leaf apron (even though it was thought up by Satan)

===What I Heard Others Opine===
--The Signs (the ones where you put your arms in funky positions, usually at right angles) we all depicted in Egyptian hieroglyphics (I was even shown some that match closely by a religion teacher at BYU-I... but they weren't side by side, but of the many hieroglyphs, some do look like the temple signs)

--There is a Holy of Holies in every temple (not true) where Jesus comes during each temple dedication to accept it as his house

...I know there were tons more, but I'm having a hard time remembering any good ones at the moment

justrob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is a broad topic, mostly because the church
> lets/encourages rumorville on this one. That way
> they can get any possibly deep (albeit accidental)
> meaning, without the responsibility of tying
> themselves to an explanation that can later be
> debunked.


This is it! When it can mean literally anything, there are a thousands things you could "learn."

The problem is, you don't really "learn more of the meaning" when you go to the temple, you *create more bs* (you are mimicking the Great Old Deceiver himself - GOD, and his number one minion - Joe Smith).

Believe me, I know about deception.
Merry Xmas!

There's a whole book 'The Gate of Heaven' by Matthew Brown that my TBM brother has been reading and making lots of notes in; it goes into the whole "ancient history" of all the temple stuff; I think 99% of the heavily footnoted source material is from other LDS writers.

The bad news is he believes all that stuff.

You can't be too careful with this stuff. If whoever resurrected your wife forgot to cock his pinky, she might pop up with three arms, and how would you get all that through the veil without several additional points of fellowship?

I also always had the impression that we would have to give the signs and tokens in order to actually enter the celestial kingdom. I mean, it really didn't make sense otherwise. As for the film, I thought that learning about the creation of the world and Adam and Eve was supposed to teach us really important doctrines, though I never really figured out what those were. I remember finding it a bit frustrating that the only place where we were allowed to talk about the endowment ceremony was in the celestial room where it seemed like talking was discouraged.

Thanks for the info so far. I had never heard that the name of the final token is a placeholder, to be replaced by a personal question from God.

My first time through I remember saying to my escort "this is all symbolic right? The handshakes and passwords are just symbolic...?" He suggested I keep coming back to the temple to learn more, without answering my question. That was in 2006. As a missionary I remember feeling sick to my stomach when I found the entire endowment, with all the changes, online thanks to google.

This is what I've heard from my sister, who remains TBM to this day:
Men's Cap-represents knowledge from on high
Sash-girding up your loins for the battle against evil.
Taking shoes off-Moses was told to remove his shoes because the ground he was standing on was holy ground.

This is crap that I made up while being a temple attender:
Aaronic Preisthood palm up-receiving knowledge or assistance from god or others.
Melchizedick priesthood palm down-you have advanced in the priesthood, now you give knowledge or service to others.
This is what I have realized now:
The whole endowment ceremony symbolizes the church's control over its members. If you do not OBEY, you will be in SATAN's POWER!!!!!!

A few years ago, the NOM board had some interesting discussions about the ceremony, stuff I never thought of. Its amazing what people can read into it when they really want to see something deeper than the top layer of control tactics. You can do a search on that board and probably find these discussions easily. It might fry your brain, though.

After I went through the first time just before my mission I was deeply disturbed. I talked to my Bishop about it and he said that the more you go the more you will understand it. That's why we were told to go so often. He clearly didn't know any more about what any of it meant than I did. No one does. Its a classic Emperor's New Clothes scenario. No one is going to be brave enough to be the first to admit that it's meaningless.

I read into the cereomony as being increasingly involved. Each handshake is a little more intimate, until you reach a fuller intimacy with God at the veil. Each oath and accompanying penalty was increasingly serious. It was a reminder that as you step closer to God, you should take your steps more seriously; and that your punishment will be greater than someone else's should you stray, because you have been more intimate and more sober about what you're doing.

As a non-believer now, it's all bullsh*t. Look at all the other comments on this thread. It's about whatever you want it to be about, baby.

Would it kill them to ask everyone if there were any questions in between parts of the Endowments before moving on to the next process? If I heard someone else’s question it might help me to ask other questions. I mean you are suppose to be learning, right? Too bad I can't go anymore. I think I would try to get a group and hang out in the Molesting room, oh wait that’s down stairs, The C room that’s it, we could then talk about everything before getting kicked out. Can people use their smart phones in the session so they can Google stuff and take notes. This reminds me of why I hated school. You pay for an education by a professor you see maybe twice. The rest of the time it’s by the assistant.

My parents went only one time for endowments. (late 1970's early 80's)
They never wanted to go back.
They kept saying they felt closer to god in the gardens then in the suppose house of god.

Short answer, as a TBM this is part of how I understood it:

it's meaning is in it's symbolism. For instance, the signs and tokens used in the past, for instance, symbolize the great importance of the covenants that are made.

Looking for literal meaning is pointless. It's not possible anyhow in how the whole ceremony is presented. I know people think it's literal,however, how they think that works, is beyond me. Maybe I "got it" better because I was a convert and had an understanding of religion in my background.

The ceremony at the veil is again symbolic of the covenants that the individual makes. The garment is also symbolic as it has the markings that are used to remind the believer of their covenants on a 24-7 basis.


Gaining new meanings from the temple is like reading a book, like the scriptures at different times in one's life and gaining some new understanding of the words, or the message.

The importance of the temple is to give everyone an opportunity to accept The Plan of Salvation in this life and the next as believed by the LDS. It was a necessary ordinance.

Now, I have no particular interest in ordinances of any kind or covenants, etc. It's a little too much like the Old Testament and how the people were given rote things to do to remember what they believed and what their god demanded of them.

Even at the time I was attending (for over 30 years to ...hmmm, I think... nine temples, one in Europe) probably over 500 sessions, it was too much like the OT in my view. That whole thing conflicted with the teaching that Jesus Christ came to fulfill the OT.
It was a big blaring doctrinal conflict in my mind.

But, now none of that matters to me, as I don't find a need for some enlightenment about pleasing a deity or savior. It appeals to a lot of other people, but not to me. I'm quite capable of conducting my life without all those trappings, much of which seem to be treating me as a five year old!

Joseph Smith of course made up much of it after stealing masonic parts. However, if you want to understand what some of the possible masonic symbolism represents I think the below book could help! http://thesealedportion.com/sns/index.htm

Ha ha Chris Nemelka! It might be funny to read.

Dad and Mom started going after Mom converted in 1959. They never spoke of their experiences and I didn't ask. Maybe I should have. So what are the death penalties about. Tell someone "unworthy" a secret and you get smited....mightily? Bizarre, troubling and totally fucked up. Someone comes after me they'll get smited from sooooo far away.....but I digress...

Ron Burr

I developed some memory problems in my 40's. I was worried that I wouldn't be able to remember any of the temple stuff.

My Stake president told me to stop worrying about that. His reasoning was that once I heard it I would be ok. My memory would be made perfect once I died. Not to worry! It would all come back to me in perfect order.

After that, I didn't make any attempt to try and remember any of it. When I got to the veil I would tell them that I had memory problems. They would then tell me word for word what to say. They told me that when I died there would also be people there to help me say the right words.

In other words, all the stress they lay on people to memorize the veil ritual is a load of shit. They tell the members all that crap to keep them paying, praying, and obeying. If you have a memory problem you get a free pass.

The sense of anxiety and distress they create around the temple experience is a load of garbage. Another good example of how they emotionally abuse the members.