We had a knock on the door last night and it was the missionaries. We decided to invite them to come back, and we plan to give them a detailed list of a few issues. There are THREE of them, so this could be good - maximum exposure to some real issues. What do you think are the top 3 issues that would cause some uncertainty with missionaries and what is the best way to approach missionaries with these issues?

BoA - because they can research what you told them while 'reading their scriptures'

D&C 132 for the same reason

Yes - the BoA is a pretty major one, and pretty damning. I think this will have to be one of the three too.

The continual lying about baptism of Holocaust victims; the continual lying about Mountain Meadows; the continual lying about the support for Proposition 8; the continual rewriting of Mormon history; the continual rewriting of the Book of Mormon; take your pick.

Horses in the Book of Mormon. Just no good explanation for it. Doesn't fit real history at all. There's a list of other things obviously, but they'll remember horses if you keep the list short.

1) Polygamy (ages of wives, number of wives, wives of other men, breaking the law, lying about, etc)
2) Book of Abraham
3) Differing First Vision

The top three seem to be the most common ones ex-Mos had issues with.


4) One of mine was seeing the similarities between the endowment and the masonic ceremony & that Joseph Smith came up with it right after becoming a Mason.

If you bring up the temple ceremony, the missionaries will tell you it's sacred and they can't talk about. Ask why they can't be completely honest about what goes on in the temple, and let them know, what they call "sacred", others call lying by omission. It's like a vacuum cleaner salesman coming to your house and just telling you what a great product their cleaner is. But, you only get to see it after you buy it.

I notice mormons will make fun of the clothes worn by other clergy which is no different than a uniform for work. But, they won't talk about their magic underwear or the temple clothes. At least the clergy of other churches are willing to show you the outfits they are required to wear. Mormons have to hide theirs.

I honestly thought the talk about special underwear was a joke until I went to a temple prep class. I never went back to church after that.

Why can men get sealed to multiple women in the temple, but women cannot?

Ask them about the spirit.

Specifically ask them how emotions 'teach' truths.

Just because one has 'good' feelings doesn't make something true/false.

In fact there are many examples of circumstances that 'feel good' which are false or are not good at all.

Yea, I was already thinking about this one. I do think this is a really good one - especially with the missionaries. I think this will have to be one of the three issues discussed.

Moroni's promise - when they ask you to read and pray about the Book of Mormon, ask them 'which version?' This really stumped the missionaries that asked me. (My wife later spotted one of the same elders picking up his meds at the Safeway pharmacy.)

When I was in the MTC, we were taught how to help people 'recognize the spirit'. I later learned this is a classic mind control/influencing technique. Any positive feeling, emotion or experience could be ascribed to the spirit and seen as confirmation of truth. Your investigator feels peaceful when visiting missionaries? That's the holy ghost. Your inestigator feels a sense of clarity from a certain scripture? That's the holy ghost. You hear your investigators stomach growl? That's the holy ghost testifying that they are hungry for the truth of the Book of Mormon.

You give your comp a serious hard on? Well that's NOT the holy ghost, but a topic for another thread.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2013 11:20PM by amos.

I’ve always wanted to try this:

Talk about JS marrying teenagers. Then ask them how they feel in their gut. Tell that that the unsure, sickening feeling is the Holy Ghost telling them that what JS did was wrong.

I'd point out that the missionaries don't believe in "the
Spirit" because the VAST majority of thing people know by "the
Spirit" are considered false by Mormonism. The Mormons even
admit that "the Spirit" is not reliable because they have to
warn people that "anything you get by 'the Spirit' which
contradicts anything that the Brethren teach is not true."

So given this how the hell can they say they can "trust the
Spirit?" Why do they trust what "the Spirit" has told them but
not trust what "the Spirit" has told hundreds of millions of
others? Isn't that a bit arrogant if not two-faced?

YES! Also, show them some testimonies from people of other faiths. Mormonthink has some good ones you could print out on their "testimony and spiritual witness" page. If you click the link to the Catholic forum, there are some that sound exactly like Mormon testimonies. That always bothered me as a missionary. It also bothered me a TON when exmos would tell me that they knew and remembered exactly what it was like to bear testimony, and now they knew better.

+

All you have to do is show them a basic history of Hebrew linguistics to make them shut up.

All of the above, plus, Joseph Smith's multiple marriages to young girls behind Emma's back (almost no serious TBM members are aware of this, especially misshies!), the mall in SLC, how much $$ really goes to charity; how a God who created and loves all his children can pick and choose based on religion, good people of other faiths & hypocritical mormons, oh, the list is too long to touch on it all. Have fun!

That an exmo can make an MP get them a car!

Undercut the idea that the spirit is the source of truth. How can a feeling be trusted to tell you truth?

http://mormonthink.com/testimonyweb.htm

Yes, this is a definite.

For me, polygamy wasn't the biggest issue (because it's so "well known") that we had cookie cutter answers to appease it. Little did I know that I was lying about it but still, it worked for me.

Anyway, the three easiest ones to bring up to me are the

1) Book of Abraham (right in your face and in their standard works still)

2) "Book of Mormon" being the most correct book on earth, yet riddled with mistakes. 2 Nephi? 15? Build Solomon's temple with precious ores etc, next verse, but we didn't build it like Solomon's temple because we didn't have ores...

3) Gordon B. Hinckley's lying on national television.


They are all documented, all public info for the most part, and all demonstrate fallacious bits. Something you could easily "stumble upon".

I'm giving a +1 to the few people who talked about the spirit supposedly bearing witness of the truth - Jesus Smith gave the mormonthink address, but I think one of the best parts on there is the part that talks about people of other faiths who claim to feel the spirit too http://mormonthink.com/testimonyweb.htm#peopleofallfaiths (of course, if they've had their excellent training they'll tell that's the devil testifying to the other people, lds get the "right" spirit).

Polygamy with young girls was mentioned, but I think polyandry is an even bigger deal - JS married 11 women who were currently married, several of these women had husbands that Joe sent on missions - sneaky bastard.

Yes. Print out some of those testimonies. They are not anti-Mormon, just feelings of devout, sincere believers of other faiths.

For me, it is the so-called 'First Vision', with 9 Versions...

Another nail in the coffin would be the BOA and the papyrus...

Finally, I would hit them below the belt by mentioning the BOM has nearly 4,000 corrections, along with anachronisms, plagiarisms etc., exposing it as a bad 19th century novel...



Tell 'em Breedum said so...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2013 02:45AM by breedumyung.

I agree with Breed. It supposedly all began with JS's first vision.

Quote Gordon Hinkley (and others) who said that without the first vision story, the church is nothing.

Then ask them which of the 9 conflicting versions we should accept.

I mean, these are just the same old anti-Mormon lies that have been debunked decades ago but still are repeated over and over again.

I KNOW the church is true. We may not understand everything now but in the Lord's time, it will all become clear.

^^LOL

I know that you BELIEVE it, I doubt that you KNOW it.

Nothing. Live and let live. There is a wise saying. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

In other words, you can give them the most damning evidence ever, and they will go in to denial. They will dismiss you as a crazy person, even when they are acting like lunatics.

I had non-Mormons and people that Mormons consider "anti-Mormons" try to talk me out of it when I was TBM. All they did was turn me off. I only kept one friend who I considered anti-Mormon from my TBM days. He had people skills. He didn't try to make anybody change their mind. He simply stated his case, and left it at that. He never demanded that I "admit" it was a lie. He never demanded that I leave Mormonism. In fact, I didn't even tell him I'd left for a long time. And he wasn't even in to the exmo scene. He had gotten his PhD, become a college professor, and moved on.

Just one man's opinion.

T-Bone

If these guys were your friends, I would agree. But, they are missionaries. It was the constant barrage of negative information I picked up on my mission that eventually (10 years later) cracked my mental armor. One exmo guy told me after denouncing my testimony, "See, I'm planting seeds. You'll eventually" start questioning, or something like that. I tell you what, I remember all those incidents that I didn't have a good answer. My own dishonesty in response was a testimony killer in the long run. Give these guys a chance to see!

Yup - we won't talk to the fam about it anymore, but these are missionaries. We're hoping to plant some seeds.

The god thing. Because no matter what you bring up they'll resort to testimony. So you have to attack testimony first.

I say enjoy yourself with them. If they are going to go around peddling essentially complete lies to people, they should figure out soon that it may be much tougher than they think. There is no reason to be mean or rude, however, it is fair to ask them, "do you want to be able to be effective in your role? If so, you should understand these issues and be able to respond."

Here are just a few fun items to add to the terrific list on the thread.

1. Atheists don't believe in 3,700 gods. Missionaries don't believe in 3,699 gods. (www.godchecker.com)

2. Here is a link to a test asking the reader to match up various statements of "testimony" with the religion of the believer. Give this test to the Elders. Why should their "testimony" be any more compelling than any other. (scroll down to find the test)

http://www.theamateurthinker.com/2011/02/how-can-we-find-truth-part-4/

3. The Vernal Holley maps are always a hoot to print out and show naive people. http://lehislibrary.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/vernal-holleys-book-of-mormon-map/

4. There are over 80 mormon splinter groups. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sects_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement) One especially compelling group followed James Strang after the death of JS. Strang also had visions and revelations, claimed to find and translate scripture (the Plates of Laban), and claimed a divine mandate. He was able to SPIRITUALLY convert so-called Book of Mormon witnesses John and David Whitmer, Martin Harris and Hiram Page, Apostles John E. Page, William E. M'Lellin, and William Smith, Smith's sisters, Nauvoo Stake President William Marks, Bishop George Miller, and Joseph Smith's mother, Lucy Mack Smith. All of JS's family (except for Hyrum and Samuel Smith's widows), initially believed in Strang. His church numbered over 12,000 in its heyday. Also championing Strang was John C. Bennett, a physician who was one of the closest advisers of Joseph Smith, and his Assistant President and mayor of Nauvoo.

What can be made of this? How can so-called "testimony" be relied upon if the most intimate and faithful of JS's followers were able to gain a "testimony" of yet ANOTHER claimer of visions, translator of "plates", prophet of God, and seer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_J._Strang

http://www.ChurchofJesusChristofLatterDaySaints.org

5. As a counter point to illustrate the preposterousness of the book of mormon claims we need only look in more detail at the ancient Norse settlement L'Anse aux Meadows located in northern Newfoundland. Something like 100 Norse explorers spent perhaps only a few years in this location (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'Anse_aux_Meadows) which dates to about 1000 AD. Among the discoveries were the remains of iron smelting and iron artifacts -- noted by scholars as the oldest documented evidence of iron or steel in the New World.

Even though the number of people at the site were few and the term of their habitation was short, multi-year archeological excavations have produced numerous remains of earthen or bog houses and other structures as well as over 2000 specific artifacts that are housed in Canadian and local museums and have also found their way as far as the Smithsonian.

100 people in only a few years can generate enough archeological material to fill up a museum and millions and millions of Nephites and Lamanities cannot produce ONE SINGLE CONFIRMING ARTIFACT that confirms or even suggests their existence.

This claim is beyond any reasonable belief.

There are only a few so-called genuine artifacts that I know of that were claimed to be evidence for BofM people.

First is the gold plates (and related items such as the urim and thummim), which no one ever saw, and said to have been reclaimed by Moroni (despite the fact that they were unnecessary and unused in any so-called translation work).

Second is the Kinderhook Plates, proven later to be a fraud.

Third is the so-called Alter, a pile of stones identified by JS as such without any corroborating reasons or evidence.

Fourth the bones of Zelph the White Lamanite, found after excavating a burial mound in Illinois. The mound was later identified as belonging to the indigenous Hopewell peoples and not to Lamanites.

Two of these "artifacts" are proven to be fraudulent, one is merely a pile of stones, and the third cannot be shown to be real.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2013 12:19PM by rodolfo.