I love this site. I really appreciate the fact there is a forum where we can share ideas with people who really do understand.

One thing that kind of bothers me though is how quickly people who have that epiphany moment and realize the church is largely a sham are willing to share things they promised they wouldn't share.

I know there are a lot of strong feelings out there that the temple rituals are bogus. I think so too. In fact, I have come to the realization that they are probably nothing more than a blatant copy of the Masons rites and a way to make momos feel they have more "skin" in the game. I know where you are coming from. I get it.

But there is still the issue of integrity that transcends whatever one may feel about the church. I have major problems with my relationship with my parents due to their loving the church more than their son. That notwithstanding, I have to acknowledge that it wasn't all bad - I was taught integrity by a dad who is famous for his impeccable integrity and keeping his word. He wouldn't go back on his word if his life depended on it. No matter what else I feel about him, I have to thank him for that lesson.

Having said that, I feel strongly that, no matter what you may think about things now, it matters that you keep your word. I don't believe the temple experience is valid. It doesn't change the fact that I made promises.....pretty clearly stated ones, that I would keep it to myself and not blab. And I was given every chance to "withdraw". Maybe I was young and dumb and rather swayed by peer pressure. Still doesn't matter. I gave my word, period. It really IS that simple. I feel the only exception to this is if the thing I committed to do is either morally wrong or is the CORE issue now in question. In this case, it isn't. Silly as I think it is now, I still joined someone's party and they made me promise I wouldn't kiss and tell before they'd let me go through it.

I'll put it in a different way. Someone gets a payday loan. Reads the contract, signs it, and gets the money. That person sees the first bill come, sees the realities of the unreasonable interest, and decides that payday loans are crooked (which they are) and now doesn't want to pay due to the fact the terms are outrageous. Now he doesn't agree with them anymore. Now he isn't paying. Breaking your contract isn't acceptable just because of a fresh new perspective on what you did. If anything, it underscores the importance of knowing before doing.

Should I have withdrawn all those years ago? Well, armed with hindsight, I definitely should have. Its unfortunate, but it is what it is. As a newly minted Elder on his way to a mission, I couldn't have imagined at the time doing that.

In the end, does it really hurt me to keep my word on that? Not really. The church and everything it is and stands for isn't valid in my life anymore. But who I am still is. I guess it's a little thing but I think it still matters.

TSCC lied their socks off in order to elicit certain promise, why does anyone have to keep a promise elicited from them with lies?

If I promise to marry someone because they promised to be faithful to me for life, and that promise was a lie, why should I honor my promise?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2013 09:29PM by MJ.

Short answer (I have a long one, but I'll stick with this for now) - it is morally wrong to continue to aid and abet the Mormon church's ability and determination to keep members in thrall, whether it's through omission or commission. You gave your word, as you say, in a fraudulent ceremony where options to back out seem present, but are, in fact, not, due to peer pressure and a staggering need for members to conform in order to continue to gain blessings. You were held hostage by the church for thousands of dollars in tithing money you did not need to pay, as is the case with every other member - it is morally wrong to continue to stay silent and abide by nonsensical rules while poor young families struggle with poverty and depression due to overwhelming demands on their time and money. The church may not be valid in your life any more, but it is critically important in far too many other peoples' lives - those people continue to suffer under a heavy burden, and without the information we can share they may never have a chance to escape.

but its not like the payday loan, you didn't get a chance to read the contract before you made it.

I too believe in integrity, that also means in my mind exposing deception when you see it practiced.

so which do you? continue to support the deception by being complicit in the promises you made and thus bringing in more into the deception or do you expose it for the sham it is?

do you just 'carrying on?' or do you do what is right and let the consequence follow?

it took me a serious bit of introspection to figure out how to have personal integrity in this exact situation. I took my own son into the same situation and watch him get roped into the same contract without knowing, because I kept my word not to tell him.

when he look me in the eye and asked if he had just joined a cult, I knew that I had made a mistake and a person with real integrity would have spoken up. in took a couple months after that but I finally had the courage to tell my parents what I thought even though I knew they would think me the devil. I decided that too many are complicit in the sham and that allows others to be fooled.

the mans way, the way of integrity is usually the hardest, it is far far harder to speak out and deal with out lash of family IMO that it is just to keep quiet and go along with the flow,

So since my new name is Jacob and health in my navel and all that bullshi t I have no integrity?

For me I see some twisted thinking on integrity.

I will not be complicit in the Mormon fraud cult.

I am so sad to see them still actively defrauding thousands of their children and investigators. I will gladly help them be pressed to a more and more honest accounting of their doctrines, rituals, and history. All things that should flourish in the light!

I don't imagine you will agree. If they trick someone into committing to their fraud cult, that person should stay quiet about their knowledge. That is after all the measure of character in your opinion. If you were deceived as a teenager, you must stay quiet as an adult.

Tithing is sacred to mormons and you made a promise to pay it.

Why is one sacred promise OK to break and another is not?

Heck, you promised to give all your time, talent and possessions to the cult too don't forget.

Can't you see that you are picking and choosing here.

Singling out one line in a bogus ceremony to HONOR, while ignoring all the other lines in the same ceremony makes no sense no does it?

Coerced promises are not enforcable. Period. I regard the temple promises that were coerced by fear of saying "NO" to be unenforcable. The promises I made to my wife when we married (fortunately before we were LDS) I regard as sacred. I made those promises of my own free will. When I had, as a youth, been confirmed a Presbyterian, the promises were fully explained beforehand and if those required me to not tell others, I would not do so. But the Mormon temple ceremony promises are done without being told prior to or reading the promises and I, for one, had my fingers crossed. For myself I was mute, though for people for whom I went through, I was audible as I knew it bound them, not me. I felt on the issue of promising that everything I would ever get belonged to TSCC to be promising something I had already given away. I had already promised my wife my all and had promised all for Christ. I did not have the power to then promise TSCC. It reminds me of the Simpsons' episode where Bart successfully defends Homer on the basis he had already given the "heart and soul to Marge" and thus his agreement with the devil was void. The promise, to any extent, to the COJCOLDS is void. I already belonged to Christ.

The church used my young age (18), my wedding day, and my distance from home 800 miles, to coerce me into an agreement that I didn't know any of the details about. If i'd known ahead of time what they had in mind I never would have agreed to it. They blindsided me at my most vulnerable. In my world that's not called integrity.

If i'd ever used that tactic on the church, they'd ignore me too. If they didn't ignore me, they'd have their attorney's lined up to squash me into submission.

The church has zero integrity, I have no respect for them. If someone else wants to pretend like the church is on the up and up more power to them. I wouldn't know why you'd care, but to each their own.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2013 10:43PM by mia.

My integrity remains intact based on the following. First, the oaths and promises I took in the temple were based on falsehoods and pretense, thereby rendering them null and void the moment I realized this. It’s not unlike going to small claims court and demanding the judge uphold an illegal contract (for example an illicit drug transaction). The court will not nor cannot uphold such an agreement.

Second, there must be a meeting of the minds between the parties involved. If I agree to remain silent based upon my belief that the information presented to me is factual, then I must maintain that silence. If, on the other hand, I find that I was given false information, then, again, the promises made are no longer valid.

But let me take this a step further. Once I find out that the promises I made are based on lies, I must NOT be voiceless if I am going to be in integrity. It’s as Martin Luther King stated, “Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.” I think this matters very much and I for one will not remain silent. That being said, it would behoove us all to use good taste and diplomacy when talking about such sensitive matters.

I am saddened that you equate integrity to being silent about promises made on deceptions. It is my hope that you would rethink your position. It’s secrecy that has caused too many of us so much angst and sorrow. How can I allow that to happen to others when it is in my power to inform? I cannot. To end, I quote M.L. King again, “In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.”

My temple name is Rachel.

I could not disagree more, and frankly take more than a little offense at having it suggested that I lack integrity because I want to do what I can to expose the cult for what it is.

Unless people divulge the secret handshakes and grips, how will unsuspecting people know they are a sham of a rip-off from Freemasonry?

The LDS church gave up any call for protection under the guise of integrity when it lied, lied, and lied to coerce people to the temple under the pretense of it being a legitimate ordinance necessary for an afterlife.

If you don't think what they do in the temple is morally wrong then most people on this site can't help you I am afraid. Liars deserve no integrity or devotion from the followers who were deceived. I believe you struggle with the issues of right and wrong. Integrity does not matter when someone wants you to do something that is wrong just to "join up". LDS people must shun others in many cases who don't go along with their beliefs, people must pay up or not be worthy, people must belief all other faiths are an abomination, etc., etc. And you think GOD approves of that and all the rest????

People do join for various reasons...depression, pressure from family, being lonely and wanting to belong to something, getting a divorce etc. That can all be cleared up and smoothed over in many cases and then when you are mentally healthy again, who cares what you "promised" to liars.I hope you will see the fallacy of your statement with more time to think it over.

And iwhisper I love that MLK quote....one of my favorites....and it fits this topic well.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2013 10:49PM by honestone.

Wow! Not one person agrees with me! Do you all realize you are even more zealous and full of shit than the people you so hate in the church? The rationalization of being coerced is shit. The rationale that I "owe" it to everyone else is shit. Just because you feel stupid for making a dumb decision, that doesn't give you a free pass. Can you really tell me you aren't blabbing just to get even? If you deny that, you are full of shit.
I've been through what you have and I know your feelings of betrayal and chagrin. If there are regrets, don't take it out on your integrity as a person. So you tell me your name. Big fucking deal!! It doesn't mean shit! Neither to me or to you. But your integrity takes a hit. Do I care? No! I don't even know you. But kudos on your courage! You think that makes you tough? Fuck you!
These disappointing posts prove to me you that posted are worse than the bunch of fucks I left back in my ward!

Clearly you are not interested in a discussion ideas, you are just interested in pushing your world view on everyone else.

I see no integrity in you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2013 10:49PM by MJ.

Somewhere out there....someone may agree with you. I, for one, certainly did not agree to certain of the promises and do not feel bound. Integrity means I should disclose what happened to other people to protect them. Not to disclose would be not to have integrity.

To me, the same reason fraud on the part of person "A" invalidates my contract with person "A", Lies on the part of person "B" invalidates my promises to "B".

In both of these cases it is THEIR lack of integrity that invalided contracts or promises, not mine.

dx Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow! Not one person agrees with me! Do you all
> realize you are even more zealous and full of
> @#$%& than the people you so hate in the church?
> The rationalization of being coerced is @#$%&. The
> rationale that I "owe" it to everyone else is
> @#$%&. Just because you feel stupid for making a
> dumb decision, that doesn't give you a free pass.
> Can you really tell me you aren't blabbing just to
> get even? If you deny that, you are full of
> @#$%&.
> I've been through what you have and I know your
> feelings of betrayal and chagrin. If there are
> regrets, don't take it out on your integrity as a
> person. So you tell me your name. Big fucking
> deal!! It doesn't mean @#$%&! Neither to me or to
> you. But your integrity takes a hit. Do I care?
> No! I don't even know you. But kudos on your
> courage! You think that makes you tough? Fuck
> you!
> These disappointing posts prove to me you that
> posted are worse than the bunch of fucks I left
> back in my ward!

Hope you are just bored on a Friday night and playing around for Internet sport. If not, your post didn't go over big--no need to kick over the chessboard.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2013 11:10PM by gentlestrength.

So, DX, do you honor all the other promises you made in the temple? If not, why is this one such a hot-button issue for you?

Did you get married in the temple? If you are now an unbeliever, do you call it a lack of integrity to have abandoned your faith/religion after making promises to your wife during the sealing? One of the common themes we see here when a man stops believing but his TBM wife continues to believe is the TBM wife's accusation that her husband broke his promises to her and is no longer trustworthy. That line of thinking is in keeping with your opinion about what constitutes integrity, so by your own definition, you lack integrity.

As mentioned by another poster, you are cherry picking which "made in the temple" promises you choose to honor. How do you justify breaking the other promises? Do you accuse yourself of lacking integrity because you have broken other promises you made in the temple?

Words only have the power people give them. Rituals only have the power people give them. Organizations ultimately only have the power people give them.

I get what you're saying about integrity, but in this case, I don't really see how it applies.

Why should anyone who realizes that it's a sham, and likely just a sham to obtain power an money, give power to the organization, their words, and their rituals?

Classy, dx. People provided rational, even-tempered, thoughtful comments and you retaliate with base profanity and nasty accusations. What a shame.

Yep. Sheesh.

Well said MJ...sorry we all wasted our time with some thoughtful comments about Truth and Lies. This OP doesn't care to have a thought provoking discussion.

Nice hiding behind that. So I just accept because you all want to get even? That isn't open dialogue. I'm disappointed to see that not a single person here gives a shit about what's right because you all feel so stupid about being duped. It is I who feels bad for you. I an sleep tonite knowin that at least I keep my word. Adios to this site. I'm looking for one where people value what's right over their own pride!

To claim that my point was about getting even would be a lie and a total lack of integrity on your part.

Also, wanting to warn others that TSCC lies is not the same as trying to get even. TO say they are the same would be another lie and total lack of integrity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2013 11:01PM by MJ.

What's right? Pretentious doesn't even explain your attitude.

They do give a $#!+ about what's right; they are merely disagreeing with you about what the right thing is--which you'd be able to see if your own pride in your version of integrity wasn't getting in the way.

You telling me keeping you word means nothing? Yes or no? It's one or the other !!!

Hope I never have a business venture with you!

It is clear to me you have no idea what integrity is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2013 11:07PM by MJ.

I see no reason to keep my word to people that lied to me in order to get my word. Their lies invalidated my word, not lack of integrity on my part.

I'm not interested in getting even. I'm interested in getting OUT, and helping others to get out.

You really think the people were complicit and lying to you! You really don't get it. Has it no dawned on you they have partaken of the kook aid?
Still don't mean squat! You either keep your word or you don't. That doesn't have conditions as you suppose.

Yes or no.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2013 11:15PM by MJ.

First, I am one of the few people who here who has never divulged my temple name or told people about what happens within the temple. Why do I refrain? I'm not sure. Probably a residual reluctance to harm people whose feelings I still respect.

But I cannot understand why you think people who expose those things are showing a lack of integrity. In law, a contract is only enforceable if the other person fulfils his commitment. Failure of the one implies no obligation for the other. Even when the other person fails to perform his duties, there are times when violating your own commitment is morally correct. Was it immoral of people who swore fealty to Adolph Hitler to try to kill him? Are whistleblowers who have signed pledges not to reveal inside information wrong when they publicize the tabacco companies' intentional efforts to addict children? I am not in a position to make decisions for you or anyone else, but I cannot see any reason to presume that people who have left the church have an ethical obligation to abide by their temple covenants.

More broadly, however, your argument would apply to ALL of the temple covenants. Are you comfortable telling us that we may not "speak ill of the Lord's annointed," "engage in loud laughter," or have a cup of tea because we went through the temple?

Do you personally, dx, abide by all of the promises you made to the church--from baptism through the temple? It seems to me that you cannot logically pick and choose between your own commitments.