I never went to the temple either, but I have a hypothetical question for dx.
Your friend the investments counselor offers to tell you a secret if you agree to keep it a secret. You agree. He admits that he doesn't really invest the money given to him; he runs a Ponzi scheme. The next day, you learn that some of your relatives and friends plan to give him their life savings. Would you warn them?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2013 11:29PM by mysid.
I'm putting this here because the last thread closed.
First, DX, I am (probably) one of the few people here who has never divulged my temple name or told people about what happens within the temple. Why do I refrain? I'm not sure. Probably a residual reluctance to harm people whose feelings I still respect.
But I cannot understand why you think people who expose those things are showing a lack of integrity. In law, a contract is only enforceable if the other person fulfils his commitment. Failure of the one implies no obligation for the other. Even when the other person fails to perform his duties, there are times when violating your own commitment is morally correct. Was it immoral of people who swore fealty to Adolph Hitler to try to kill him? Are whistleblowers who have signed pledges not to reveal inside information wrong when they publicize the tabacco companies' intentional efforts to addict children? I am not in a position to make decisions for you or anyone else, but I cannot see any reason to presume that people who have left the church have an ethical obligation to abide by their temple covenants.
More broadly, however, your argument would apply to ALL of the temple covenants. Are you comfortable telling us that we may not "speak ill of the Lord's annointed," "engage in loud laughter," or have a cup of tea because we went through the temple?
Do you personally, DX, abide by all of the promises you made to the church--from baptism through YM/YW to the temple? I don't know your personal background, but I would think that if you have lost faith you probably routinely violate at least some of your past promises.
I'm not bound by any "covenants" imaginary or not. Even if I had received my endowments, it doesn't change the fact that to do so would be under duress and spiritual extortion. No one is bound by imaginary threats and to continue to keep the secret oops sacred lies under wraps gives TSCC too much power and mystery over the members.
Personally, I don't give a rat's ass whether someone like dx thinks I have integrity or not because the people who know me know I do.
Both of my sisters were still in denial about the temple crap years after they left and they are both intelligent people. The brainwashing DOES run deep with the members who stay who the temple rituals I think.
BYU gets out earlier than other schools because they don't have spring break, if you get my drift.
You are so full of shit! You are the one brainwashed....into thinking your recent 'strapping on of the balls' has given you a free pass to turn your back on everything that is right.
Im actually leaving this site with a big smile on my face......wow, did I never suppose I'd get so many of you pissed off exers to get so wound up!
And in case you suspect Im not who I say I am, yes, I've denounced the church, the leaders, and the temple. Been on a mission, had kids, bishopbrick callings...etc.
I DO know what Im talking about.
I leave you with these final words....
YOU EITHER KEEP YOUR WORD, OR YOU DONT!!!!!! All your theologies and posturing about how deep the deception was doesn't mean squat.
Has nothing to do with the reasons you think absolve you Or the fact you were stupid like me to say yes all those years ago Or you want to "strap on your balls" and be a man and you think that means doing something really "daring" Or that you feel everyone in the church lied to you. That is idiotic beyond belief!!!!!!!!!
Ive read all of the replies trying to make turning back on your word ok....because you found out you shouldn't have done it. Carries no weight. That is black and white. If you say you shouldn't have agreed, well, so sad for you. Guess you should have known better, no? Sucks to be you. Dont forget, I got burned too.
Do you really think such a farce, at those levels could be kept secret?
Why do you think the initial deception is so successful? It is a trifecta of suppressing truth, not allowing questioned thought, and making everyone follow the "leaders".
I seriously doubt that anyone outside of JS's inner circle knew anything about the depth of the deception.
Believe me, those temple workers who asked us to do those silly things are more believing than you could ever imagine. I"ve known a lot of them.
I cant say this for sure but it would surprise me if even the top leadership has a clue about the depth and breadth of the fraud of it all.
Joseph Smith was a master deceiver. And he had help. After that, I cant say. I think the train was well on its way and hasn't stopped since.
Everything you accuse me of proves such is true of you. No desire to see what's right. Immediately hiding behind the guise of "openness" because you think you are so progressive.
Truth and keeping your word arent progressive.....they just are!
ummm...i don't mean to point out the obvious but I think that this is more you, "... pissed off exers to get so wound up!"
You should be asking yourself why you are getting so worked up. You came here initiating a conversation and people shared their opinions. Did you think that no one would disagree with you? You don't seem very rational.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2013 12:05AM by notanymore.
DX, You said:->>I'm disappointed to see that not a single person here gives a @#$%& about what's right because you all feel so stupid about being duped. It is I who feels bad for you. I an sleep tonite knowin that at least I keep my word.>>
I don't feel stupid about being duped. However, when I discovered I was duped I had the integrity to leave.
It's because I do give a rats ass about what's right and in the temple taking oaths and promising not to reveal them unless I want my throat cut from ear to ear and be disemboweled has nothing to do with integrity and everything to do with control and fear.
It was the very idea of personal integrity that led me out of that church.
Anyone who leaves the mormon church and still remains brain washed enough to believe that he or she has some kind of obligation to keep their temple secrets, hasn't gone very far at all down the road of recovery, at least if you went through the pre 1990 ceremony.
You've got to get real and realize that a terrible thing was done to you in the temple. I went in with a good heart and good intent and they threatened to slash my throat open from ear to ear if I revealed a secret hand shake while implying a penalty for breaking a code of conduct that went with that covenant. They called it a "Penalty". They did the same thing with regard to threatening to slice open my chest, and at the waist level. Fuck them... They are dangerous, whether or not they carry out these penalties. There is no integrity in their dealings with me because they never warned me about those death threats first, and never spoke of them again afterward. Like other forms of abuse, it was just our secret with a death penalty for talking about it. Not only that, but they convinced my family members to keep this secret from me before I went through the temple. If you've been through that ceremony, you've been violated. Recovery involves admiting that to yourself, and telling anyone who wants to know what you've been through and that it happened in a mormon temple. If speaking of that scares you, if you feel like you shouldn't talk about it, then you're still drinking the cool aid. Much of my recovery started after saying this exact same thing to family members and friends who love me, and telling them that they belong to a cult. They may not want to show it or to admit it, but they will hear you. And that fabric that holds the cult together will start to disintegrate.