I was just wondering, are any atheists or agnostics actually offended that the word God is in the Pledge of Allegiance? I was just listening to a little debate on that and I figured this would be the best place to ask.

Not really offended but it doesn't belong in the pledge. Church and State need to be separate. And what/whose God is it they are referring to anyway? I have dual citizenship and when I'm with Americans I naturally stand for the pledge but I don't say it and if I did I'd leave out the "under God".

Just my MOO!

I dimly recall a lot of flapping when the "under God" part was added in the early 50's, but that's the way I learned it as a schoolkid, and that's the way I say it.

Bigger question: Just how often does anybody actually SAY the pledge, any more? I honestly can't think of the last time I did.

I thought they removed "under God" out. At least at the last time I remember, it just went:

"...one nation indivisible." instead of the "...one nation (pause) under God (pause) indivisible."


Last time I said the pledge was to my wife who is from a certain French speaking nation and she was curious at what the words were.

The word god means different things to different people. To me it means nature's plan or process or the big picture of life in the universe. Doesn't bother me to hear people use the term in another way since expressing such concepts is dependent on individual human potential and limitations.

There's no reason to say the pledge, we are all, well most of us, citizens of this country, and we are obligated to follow certain rules to maintain our citizenry in good standing, but to robotically state a pledge as if to support your country no matter what it does seems a little bit Orwellian. So I say, just get rid of it, it really serves no compelling purpose. But if it remains, go back to the pre-1954 version.

The kids at school still recite it at the beginning of class and yes it still says "under God."

It doesn't really bother me that its in there. What bothers me is when people argue with me about it always being in there. It hasn't always been.

It's hit or miss in my school district. It depends on the principal.

I'm a school teacher.
We say the pledge *every* day.
I'm atheist.
Yeah, it gets in my craw a bit.
I'd love to see it dropped.

But, I don't like pledging *allegiance* to the country either. I love my country, but I don't see the need to daily pledge my allegiance to it. Why indoctrinate these kids like this - what other citizens in this *free* country are required to pledge allegiance to the country half the days of the year?

Being a part of the 90% LDS community, and interacting with the kids/parents outside of school, it's not worth making waves over.

"Under God" never should have been added. I'm a teacher, and I avoid saying the pledge because I am offended that it's in there. If I do say the pledge, I leave it out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2013 09:09AM by mysid.

Private clubs and generally weird alcohol laws served the same purpose in Utah. They say "Mormons are in charge here. We will allow you to buy a drink, but we will force you to jump through enough hoops to make you well aware that we call the shots here, not you."

The pledge to me is a meaningless ritual. A pledge is a promise (right?) and it is something we attempt to compel people to due with social pressure. Most people know the words but have little understanding what the pledge is actually promising. The God statement is an attempt to acknowledge, give thanks to a divine force in the universe. The Christian god used to be my personal interpretation (that's out the window). Now I would classify it more like "the force" from Star Wars.

We have a local radio station where the morning talk show host always starts his show off with the pledge. For some reason I find this annoying. It is like a grand stand on what a loyal patriot he is. I tune in to gather some information of the happenings of the world around me, not to be indoctrinated on how to be a loyal citizen. So the whole damn pledge annoys me not the God part.

My son was annoyed by the "under god" business when he was younger. He felt like he was being forced to imply that he believes in this god being when he doesn't. Also he thought the mention of "liberty" (freedom) in the pledge is a taunt, because he was being forced to say it. He has since come to accept the pledge as part of the world of supernatural belief that we live in. He deals with born-again christians every day at school, and getting along means having to stay quiet while they get to talk. It's not really fair, but that's how it is.

Actually, I find the entire concept of pledging my allegiance to a piece of colored cloth to be absurd.

That's how I feel about it. Completely unnecessary and absurd.

The original purpose of the Pledge of Allegiance as written in 1892 for the quadricentenennial of Columbus' voyage to the New World was to unify a nation of immigrants:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance#Origins

If the flag salute was following Founding Father guidelines, it would state:

The united states of America pledge their allegiance to each inhabitant of this great land, blah, blah, blah... And promise to protect each individual's sovereignty at all costs.(The only true sovereignty that exists)

We were duped into becoming 'citizens' of the USA Corporation.

Save this for a different forum.

End of discussion

From God to revering the Flag....
I respect the flag enough, why should I pledge my alliance to United States? Would I have an opportunity to side with England or North Korea, when my family Kids live here?
Plain stupid.

I do not say the pledge of allegiance any more and I would not if asked. For me, pledging allegiance to a country "under god" would be pledging to a country that does not exist, there are no countries "under god".

Then pledging allegiance to a flag offends my intelligence. I own no allegiance to the flag. I owe allegiance to a set of principals. If my country abandons those principals and becomes another Nazi Germany, I would no longer have any allegiance to that country.

Basically, I think the pledge is a bunch of nationalistic brainwashing.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2013 11:22AM by MJ.

I come from the 'you dance with them what brung you' school.

Probably because I feel if I live here, I do owe some measure to the country in which I live. Some of that comes from living abroad and seeing what true, abject abuse of power can oppress people.

Then again maybe it's because I almost lost a son in Afghanistan.
Wish I could say with a clear conscience that was for God and Country but its hard for me to wrap my brain around that. What I do know is that he came home in pretty bad shape mentally and I think it is such a criminal waste.

Good points made though regarding what does the pledge really mean? And why should you have to profess God if you don't believe in him.

Besides being offended by the extra words "under god," I don't understand the purpose of the pledge at all. You're forcing little children - starting in kindergarten - to pledge allegiance to the FLAG. What's that about?

And to have kids as young as 5 years old parrot the words daily is just the same as having parents whisper words into the ears of their little children during Mormon F& T meetings: "I know the church is twoo..." They have no idea what these words mean.

I find the daily use of the pledge in US schools a patriotism/propaganda technique - to instill a facade of patriotism in people and to remind them daily of this obligation.

Respect between two people needs to be earned. I feel the same about patriotism. If there's something especially good about your country that you love and respect, then your patriotism is justified - earned. I just don't see the necessity of the government requiring/forcing all of its students to do this daily in school, as well as in the beginning of most meetings (e.g., city council, school board, etc.).

I have asked (and observed) school classes in a few other countries, and they don't have a similar 'pledge' or patriotism slogan-fest daily in their schools, not even in that great 'evil empire' of the USSR. I am now working in the school system of an 'overseas' nation, and they don't follow and have never heard of such a practice.

I am agnostic and have no problem saying the pledge.

Ragnar-- You're correct. On the flip side, how would one feel if in, let's say, math class, here in the US, the teacher began talking about the evils of capitalism and went on to say that Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin and the likes were some of the greatest people that ever lived and it's your duty to fight for your country?

Visiting another country and 40% of songs played on the radio are required to be in the language of said country due to government mandate. If mandate is not followed, the radio station can be taken off air and/or be given a huge fine.

And other examples. I understand the latter has nothing to do with school. It is about "indoctrination" in general.

Not starting an argument and want to make that clear :) I lived overseas 20 years of my life and have plenty of experience on how other nations implement "forced patriotism."

Why would a math teacher discuss his/her opinions about different economic theories? I would welcome such discussions in social studies/economic classes in the US. And, yes, I have had teachers in both HS and college in the US go on and on about hatred of anything 'communist' and 'socialist' and that we must constantly fight against these forces (especially when the students really don't know what these terms actually mean).

The FCC in the US proscribes what can and cannot be broadcast. There used to be a 'fairness doctrine' that mandated equal time for opposing political viewpoints on broadcast stations, but that was removed in the Reagan administration. Now, the limitations (for which they are fined and/or threatened with losing broadcast licenses) are mostly for the use of foul language and showing nudity.

My point is that the US does engage in 'forced patriotism.' I haven't studied all countries/cultures, but I know that such practices are not universal. Right now, I'm in northern Europe. The students and staff here are very patriotic, without forcing them to engage in daily practices to implement or impress this patriotism.

I think that patriotism - like respect - should be earned, not forced.

It was indoctrination in the Soviet style system that existed in the Soviet Union and its satellites.

I went to school in Germany and visited most nations in Europe, including schools. While many do not have indoctrination as a pledge of allegiance per say, people are still indoctrinated whether they realize it or not. It's the culture.

It is also my experience that Americans, patriotic as they are, don't hold a candle to some other nations. I do not see any forcing of patriotism on anyone since I have moved here. As far as I know, the pledge of allegiance is not forced on anyone.

When my mother finally received her US citizenship, on the other hand, she was proud to recite the pledge. I was proud of her as well :)

Of course, the USSR had a strong patriotism indoctrination, but the people I talked to from there said that they did not have the equivalent of a daily school 'pledge,' and I understand that the current Russian Federation also does not use it. I'm saying that the US does participate in patriotism indoctrination just as well as some other countries.

At every school I've ever worked in the US at over my 40-year career, the pledge was always part of the daily activities.

As stated previously, it's often up to the building principal how seriously to take it.

Interesting note: At one of the last schools I worked in (in Idaho) the principal decided to have the students recite the pledge in English, and then in Spanish. One parent of a 5th grade student told his daughter to recite the pledge in English, but to sit down during the Spanish rendition. The principal proceeded to discipline her, and threatened an in-school suspension for her (I consider that 'forced'). The parent then complained to the district office, and then went to the press. The local newspaper and TV station covered it, and soon it went national. It was even mentioned in one of Paul Harvey's 'comments' programs (when it was conducted by his son). Another elementary school in that same district had been (and still does) conduct the pledge in English and Spanish for years, but there had been no complaints or peeps about it.

Just asking. What other countries even have such a pledge? Come to think of it, what other countries even have a phrase like "unAmerican?

As far as I know, no other nation has anything similar to the pledge.

Edit: I'd like to add one more thing. Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs and Steel" is a fantastic book to read and also touches up a little on patriotism. A recommended read!

http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Germs-Steel-Fates-Societies/dp/0393317552



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2013 02:42PM by mike.