I've been thinking a lot about this lately. Especially this weekend with so much chatter about GC going on.

Doesn't really change my assertion that it is all bogus and not worthy of my attention. I just cant help being a bit curious about how complete the deception really is.

There are obviously many different possible scenarios but I'll try and boil it down to just a few.

1. Is the leadership all the way from the very top down to the most lowly brainwashed deacon just that? Simply brainwashed and continually drinking the kool-aid. This would only be plausible if only a small circle of JS's cronies were involved, talked everyone else in being unwitting dupes, and just let the rest snowball on its own.

2. Perhaps only the very upper layers know anything of or knowingly perpetrate deception. Maybe just the 1st presidency and apostles? Maybe not even that many?

Man! What fat fingers I have tonight! Sorry friends!

At any rate, was going to say the 3rd option would be:

3. The deception is very widespread, perhaps most GAs know. This would require secrecy and loyalty in the extreme. I find this one highly implausible. Human nature what it is, I just cant imagine that one being very credible.

Now admittedly, I haven't much evidence beyond mostly gut feelings but I tend to like option 2 as the most likely.

I think there IS evidence that the very upper guys have access to materials not very flattering to the church. Beyond a small circle, well, as easy as it is to see the truth if you dig, the church IS very good at supressing and bitch slapping anyone who even dreams of questioning anything.

Hoping to invite some spirited dialogue here.....

I wonder about this as well. Are the higher ups THAT stupid or does mormonism work for them because they are drawing salaries and benefits from it? Perhaps they think of themselves like cardinals in the Roman Catholic church. It seems that they must know on some level. Thomas Monson knows he has never talked to god. He must know that it is a big scam. Perhaps that's why he's so fat...just keep on swallowing down the lies...

The 15 have been on the cult payroll their entire adult lives. Do you really think they are obvious to the historical problems and are so sheltered they never hear the critics? Impossible. They protect the lie because it keeps filet mignon on the table and Cadillacs in their upper east side garages.

Yet the biggest lie the 15 tell is to themselves. I believe they have found ways to rationalize away the bullsh1t or justify it in their own heads. “The BOM may not be historical but it teaches good stuff” or “Joseph may have fu3ked half the women in Nauvoo but he was a good provider to Emma”.

Its called the “Pious Fraud”....aka “The ends justify the means.” I don’t believe a single member of the 15, the 70 or even the stake presidencies in the cult would be surprised to hear about BoA problems, money digging, Kinderhook plates, Zelph, Adam God doctrine, MMM, Fanny Algier, etc, etc, etc. They are all familiar with these issues but have found a means to keep the cognitive dissonance at bay while they wait for the bank teller to print a deposit receipt.

YAH, I think all the higher ups know either consciencly or in the back of their minds. Theyve got all the motive they need to perpetuate it! Fat income prestege, Family support. And anyone working their way up the latter;even if they have doubts; they still want that brass ring so they keep they mouths shut.

It's religion. It's designed so that the member will want to believe. Belief itself is worshiped. It's also designed so that members will always hide their doubts because doubting is taught as being evil. These things combine to form an apparent wall of belief where it appears that all are on the same page. The progression up through hierarchy of leadership is also carefully crafted to eliminate anyone who expresses doubt early on. Only those thoroughly brainwashed or completely averse to expressing doubt ever make it. Even if any of the codgers doubt, they will not express or discuss it even among themselves. To do so would be seen as personal weakness/unworthiness/wickedness. Rank and file members think much the same way.

rationalguy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's religion. It's designed so that the member
> will want to believe. Belief itself is worshiped.
> It's also designed so that members will always
> hide their doubts because doubting is taught as
> being evil. These things combine to form an
> apparent wall of belief where it appears that all
> are on the same page. The progression up through
> hierarchy of leadership is also carefully crafted
> to eliminate anyone who expresses doubt early on.
> Only those thoroughly brainwashed or completely
> averse to expressing doubt ever make it. Even if
> any of the codgers doubt, they will not express or
> discuss it even among themselves. To do so would
> be seen as personal
> weakness/unworthiness/wickedness. Rank and file
> members think much the same way.


This is it.

People hear what they want to hear. I've talked to my former mission president, who is on his way to becoming a GA, about my issues with the LDS church. It is truly amazing the willful ignorance (aka faith, trust in the Lord etc) he employs, for the sake of the "blessings" of the gospel. These blessings are in fact consequences of deliberate moral living, and having nothing to do with the church being true. It is scary this millionaire (maybe billionaire?) will yield more power in the church.

+100!

I was thinking about this today. By the time you are a mission pres, 70, GA, etc., you have been a bishop and stake pres. You have had many people coming to you with this information. At the least, they all know the church covers up things and lies. At the worst, they are actively involved in the duplicity. And by the mission pres stage, you have most certainly had your second anointing and the sense of entitlement which must come with it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2013 01:07AM by twojedis.

Ha...I like that.

For instance, he HAS to have read the mountains of thoughtful, irrefutable info regarding the BOA. GEEZ! How could you study that and still be dumb enough to say "I have a testimony even in light of overwhelming evidence."

But know what? I really do think these guys are that consumed by it, and by their power.

Still, doesn't there have to be at least some level of knowing complicity?

I think their big fat egos come in to play to....... definitely GBH knew.... but what a big fat power trip.

Awesome comments!

Rational Guy, I think you nailed it in a very short paragraph.

Systematic "weeding out" of anyone who would be the least bit of a thorn in the side.

And you are dead on about the church's perfect little trifecta of insulation.
1. Get em young and administer the cool-aid
2. design the entire system to forbid thoughts other than those you wish to promote.
3. Put leadership in place who wont let the truth get in the way of a good story......

My good friend is a bishop. His brother is pretty big in CES. We were talking last week about tscc's bullsh!t factory. He knows 100% that thechurch is full of it. Knows they cover up/perpetuate falsehoods. His brother knows it too.

I'm like, "WTF! So why do you keep going? Why are you a bishop for godsake?"

He tells me he "knows" the atonement is true. And that's what counts for him. Blah, blah, blah. It was an amazing piece of rationalization.

So I would imagine a huge number of the upper crustease are well aware of the problems surrounding the history of the church. This is why you get "people" (sorry,a little bile came up) like Boyd Ks Pecker can say "Not all truth is useful." He knows the history is so filled with sh!t.

The best they can do is warn people of the eternal danger of going down the road of knowledge.
They can try to backpedal as much as possible.
They can go for the soft-sell and make it all hugsy feelsy and try to avoid any doctrine so they don't dig deeper holes.
They can ramp up the pr machines.

I'm leaning toward #3.

Just think of the early church who actually dealt with Joseph-hump-everything-in-sight-Smith. How about the deluded fools who never saw the plates but covered their a55es til their dying days. Oh yeah, when there's a lot at stake, they'll cover. And eventually delude themselves until they believe what they are spewing out for the rest of the 14 million sheeples.

I do wonder what you would find out if you could peer inside some of the leaders' heads.

Agree there are likely a bunch who doubt but are too scared to take the next step. I guess it's more like compliance throu inaction.

Leaving is bad enough for a normal member, imagine how a modern day apostate apostle would be treated for trying to out the church. Their family would probably never speak to them again.

I think a lot of the Big 15 actually believe the whole BS story. They then do all kinds of mental acrobatics to justify to themselves how they run the church, and all the special privileges they receive for doing so. They probably believe that all of the other big 15 believe as they do.

I think some of the Big 15 have figured it out. I think Brigham Young knew it was a scam, but I don't know about any specific prophet or apostle after him. I think that the ones that figured it out, did so on their own, and that a lot of these guys are the real thieves. Also, they probably exercise a whole lot of power, out of disproportion to their position, since knowing it is all a scam, and being able to fake divinity, gives them a lot of power over the TBM apostles.

I also think any of the ones who were involved with the Hoffman mess quickly figured out they were not really seers and revelators.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2013 02:52AM by forbiddencokedrinker.

shadoe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
...
> only a small circle of JS's cronies were involved,
> talked everyone else in being unwitting dupes, and
> just let the rest snowball on its own.
...

I suppose that President Joseph F. Smith was the last leader
who fully knew the true origin and purpose of the church --
and before that, George A. Smith.

UD

The answer to your question is unknowable of course, but it is still fun to ask. I think it's mostly active and unconscious ignorance.

1) As was said upthread, religion creates a scheme where to believe without evidence is considered a moral virtue. Thus I think many of the people at the top willfully "put it on the shelf" just like they tell the regular members to do. Doing that is the best way to preserve one's salvation and not risk heaven for some "trivial" historical or doctrinal point.

People with this attitude can actually acknowledge that JS and successors were not infallible and they sinned. But they will prefer not to dwell on such things as they do not believe they impact the truth of the larger teachings.

2) I think the late 20th century GAs redefined in their own minds what their office entails. They believe now that the need for substantive communication and revelation with God has mostly passed. They see their duty as being one of exhortation rather than of prophesying. Thus, there is no need for them to feel bad that they aren't chatting it up weekly with Jesus and Elohim.

3) The church that all TBMs believe in only exists in their own individual minds. That's the other great thing about religion. People can interpret it for themselves and in many cases reach really elaborate and contradictory beliefs that would be considered heretical if they ever shared them with anyone.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2013 03:05AM by Thomas S. Muenster.

Think of all the people who will kiss butts and jump through any hoop that their family demands it there's an inheritance involved.

It can go on for generations. It can get abusive and insane. I view church leaders like that. They think, or hope there will be a payoff in the end.

You can't be a "made man" (GA) in the TSCC unless you're a true sheep. In that case, you're a follower of the highest order. That level is devoid of new ideas because the follower mentality perpetuates itself.

"Zombie heal thyself" doesn't work.

Who cares?! As we say here down under in Australia and New Zealand " It's all a load of bullshit mate!!!

I can't say how I know this, but I know for a fact that some of the Apostles genuinely believe (and I think probably most of them do).

They do know about church history and all that, but they're more like apologists, in that they've come to terms with it, they reason it out to themselves in their head.

At the end of the day, there have been hundreds of GAs over the years. If they all get told the secret that the church is actually false when they become a GA, many of them would have left at that point, I'm sure (even the money and power you get as a GA wouldn't stop the anger some of them would feel).

In the First Presidency meetings, they probably discuss things similar to what they do in a Bishopric meeting, just with the whole church in mind, rather than a whole ward.

Perhaps there are a few that know it's false, but go along with it anyway (for the money, power, fame, etc.)? But they'll have to keep it to themselves, because I'm certain that some, very high up still genuinely believe.

In the beginning...

Joseph Smith used a drape to block the scribes from seeing him translate the Book of Mormon....and the people were ok with that.

Later, they as a group get to keep secrets from outsiders.

Now many things (like finances) are hidden from the members who, I guess, couldn't handle the truth if they knew it?

So all these LDS leaders came up through that system. Seems to me that lots of mental gymnastics and coverups have already been done already to get them to this point and they are ok with it.

The Weakest part of their system is their own testimonies. Other than the cliches' of that they know the church is true, Joseph is true prophet etc, they base it on other people's stories. When it gets specific its usually based on their childhood and their parents etc. They don't have anything more powerful than anyone else.

I noticed that for a while even before I left and since then I've been watching for substance but have not seen much.

Sometimes I wonder, like yesterday while listening to Eyring speaking, if they can really be that dumb. Maybe, maybe not. If not, then there must be the thought that they are doing good even if the church isn't true.

For many, it's when they are ordained Deacons, and told that - through their priesthood - they have more authority and power in their little finger than all the kings and rulers in the world.

All BS....

Think too how well the church must function within the inner circles. The main corporate church where the 15 preside and their immediate staff, the other lesser apostles and the rest of the corporate infrastructure IS thriving: pretty buildings, endless social engagements, endless praise from pie-making widows in the ranks, hot Mormon moms crying over them, brokered business deals with high placed members in government and industry. And why were these "general authorities" called? Because they loved the pomp and circumstance, the local and regional fame, the meetings, the tears...

The corporate church is a thing of beauty to the general authorities; they are only human, therefore all that Mormon bullshit only reinforces their opinions of themselves and plays to their biases and reaffirms how amazing they are. Twice a year they throw some old tymey religion in there for good measure. They are the biggest church addicts of them all. They totally buy it.

They at least know the issues. I remember when Hinckley was asked about the DNA issue and he said something like, "That hasn't been proven yet," and called it all speculation. So they at least know what the issues are.

I think that it would be an individual thing how each manages their own shelf of questions and doubts. Some would doubt more than others. Many probably have the biggest shelves in the Church and have learned how to manage them, pushing truths out of their minds as necessary in order to keep their testimonies intact.

I do know a man who was a Stake President, who told my ex-Mo friend that the Church being the only true church on the earth was hogwash, but he just thought it was a great organization and so he stuck with it.

I think a lot of higher-ups are in that position. They stay with the Church because they believe in the Church as an organization, rather than it being the Lord's true church (I know the Church is true, not that the Lord is true).

The "truth" is, in the main, a spiritual witness of the visions, metaphysical claims of Joseph Smith Jr that the Lord restored "His" Church in these Latter-days.

This is not about factual evidence. It's wise to remember this is about: FAITH!!
Two totally different systems.

Faith is reliant on that spiritual witness that is, in many cases, unwavering.

If factual evidence is what is required to remain a member of the LDS Church, it's likely that faith won't keep the person faithful. It requires belief and faith in those visions, and other events.

This is about truth God Myths. Most religions are based on faith in some visionary, metaphysical claims throughout the history of mankind. That is predominately how religions work. That is their core. They are territorial, tribal and generational. Much of the time, we are the product, religiously, of the geography of our birth.

Complain about what is factually true, and it won't faze a true believer by faith in the claims. Faith in the claims is paramount. It's very powerful.
It never requires that factual evidences add up.
The power in the faith is symbolic, metaphoric, etc.

I think they all totally believe it. If you think about it, the big 15 are among the MOST brainwashed people in the Morg. The Morg has been their entire world for almost their whole life. Unlike most members, they have actually received a LOT from the Morg. They see it as a huge "blessing" in their life. They have preached the same tired old dogma so many times, it has become their absolute truth.

Even if they do have some nagging doubts, what would their life be without the Morg? Its literally the only thing many of them have ever known!

Sure, they know that they've never physically spoken with God, but when has that ever stopped anyone in the Morg from claiming to have received "revelation" and "guidance" from the Lord? My dad was a bishop, and he truly believed that God was leading him and telling him how to run the ward. How is it any different for a GA? If he comes up with a good idea, he'll just chalk it up to "the Holy Ghost" leading him in his calling, just like every other TBM does.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2013 01:15PM by nickname.

IMO, the 15 old guys are narcissists. The reason I believe this is that they seem to lack empathy for the members, and only care about the church.

Narcissists also love the power. They feel that they are a part of something special. The members also feel part of something special. That feeling is very very strong. They've been brainwashed since birth, but they also have the power and the admiration of the members.

Narcissists have a way of believing their own importance. They live for the ego. They don't live for empathy. Being a part of something like the church is such an emotional high, they aren't interested in believing facts. I'm sure that they know all the problems with the church but the illusion that they've been sold and they sell the members is like an addiction.

The 15 old guys are addicted to the matrix of mormonism. They don't want to swallow the pill and enter the real world.

Our government leaders are not much different in the way that we live here in the good ol USA. Pay your tithes or pay your taxes, we are being led and lied to everyday. Not only in Wash.D.C. but right here locally as well. Were all treated like were a bunch of sheep. PAY-UP or else. If you like to go to the temple you better fork it over. If you don't pay your taxes fork over property or else go to Jail.

My grandfather was in the First Presidency, and he admitted that the General Authorities did not know any more about the Hereafter than anyone else on Earth. Here are some quotes that he told me personally, as my grandfather:

"No one knows what will happen in the Hereafter."

"No mortal has ever died and gone to Heaven, and then returned to tell about it." He did not believe in near-death experiences or "glimpses" of the hereafter--it was the brain.

He would get quite impatient with people who would ask him things like, "How does it feel to walk and talk with Christ every day.?" He would make it very clear that no one since Joseph Smith has ever seen Christ--not even in the temple.

A relative's temple husband had been killed in a plane crash, after they had been married only one month. No children. Later, she married the father of her children, and were married for over 50 years. She cried on Grandpa's shoulder that, according to Mormon doctrine, she and all her children would belong to her first husband, for all eternity, and not to their beloved daddy, Grandpa answered, "That won't happen. God is loving, kind, and fair.

Grandpa had a high sense of right and wrong, and he told me he had no special "gift from God," but he felt a power or discernment which would clarify problems and decisions for him and for The Church. He was a brilliant man, and very well educated in the law and ethics. He became an apostle very young. I often wondered how he could have so much money, all those years, with no real job....until I got older and put two and two together. There are a lot of perks that go with high church positions.

By today's standards, my grandfather would be judged as being a liberal Mormon.