Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: almostthere ( )
Date: April 10, 2013 07:52PM

rutabaga, you posted in an earlier thread that you and SuzieQ#1 had written an essay about how the temple is all about polygamy. Is that available anywhere? Also, if anyone else has info on the subject, I'd love to see it.

Thanks!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2013 07:52PM by almostthere.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: April 16, 2013 09:27PM

Only rutabaga has a current copy. I had one in email at one time.

Maybe he'll see this message and share it. I think he may have shared it on RFM at one point but I'm not sure.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: rutabaga ( )
Date: April 17, 2013 10:17AM

SusieQ#1 just alerted me to this.
I'll post tonight when I get home.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: almostthere ( )
Date: April 17, 2013 10:19AM

Cool, thanks!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: rutabaga ( )
Date: April 17, 2013 10:26AM

This is a “homework assignment” given to me by the bishop after I told him: “I don’t like polygamy, the temple is about polygamy, I don’t do the temple.” He asked me to support that bold statement. Here is my response.


Section 132
1961 Edition of the Doctrine and Covenants
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives.

-------The Prophet’s inquiry of the Lord--He is told to prepare himself to receive the new and everlasting covenant--Conditions of this law--The power of the Holy Priesthood instituted by the Lord must be operative in ordinances to be in effect beyond the grave--
Marriage by secular authority is of effect during mortality only--Though the form of marriage should make it appear to be for time and eternity, the ordinance is not valid beyond the grave unless solemnized by the authority of the Holy Priesthood as the Lord directs--
Marriage duly authorized for time and eternity to be attended by surpassing blessings--
Essentials for the attainment of the status of godhood -- The meaning of eternal lives--Plurality of wives acceptable only when commanded by the Lord--The sin of adultery--Commandment to Emma Smith, wife of the prophet.


Section 132
Current Edition of the Doctrine and Covenants
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501–507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.

Statements by Church Leaders

Elder Charles W. Penrose: “the revelation... was [the] only one published on Celestial Marriage, and if the doctrine of plural marriage was repudiated so must the glorious principle of marriage for eternity, the two being indissolubly interwoven with each other." (Millennial Star, Vol. 45, page 454)


Apostle Orson Pratt: "If plurality of marriage is not true or in other words, if a man has no divine right to marry two wives or more in this world, then marriage for eternity is not true, and your faith is in vain, and all the sealing ordinances and powers pertaing to marriages for eternity are vain, worthless, good for nothing; for as sure as one is true the other also must be true." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 21, page 296)

Joseph F. Smith: "I understand the law of celestial marriage to mean that every man in this Church, who has the ability to obey and practice it in righteousness and will not, shall be damned, I say I understand it to mean this and nothing less, and I testify in the name of Jesus that it does mean that." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, p. 28-31)

In 1891 during the Reed Smoot hearings before Congress, the First Presidency and Apostles of the Mormon Church: "We formerly taught to our people that polygamy or celestial marriage as commanded by God through Joseph Smith was right; that it was a necessity to man's highest exaltation in the life to come." (Reed Smoot Case, vol. 1, page 18)

Brigham Young: "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, page 269)

Heber C. Kimball: "the principle of plurality of wives never will be done away,..." (Deseret News, Nov. 7, 1855)
"Some quietly listen to those who speak... against the plurality of wives, and against almost every principle that God has revealed. Such persons have half-a-dozen devils with them all the time. You might as well deny 'Mormonism,' and turn away from it, as to oppose the plurality of wives. Let the Presidency of this Church, and the Twelve Apostles, and all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose the doctrine, and the whole of them will be damned." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 203)

Brigham Young responding to the question: " 'Do you think that we shall ever be admitted as a State into the Union without denying the principle of polygamy?' If we are not admitted until then, we shall never be admitted." Deseret News for Oct. 10, 1866

Charles W. Penrose: “In the case of a man marrying a wife in the everlasting covenant who dies while he continues in the flesh and marries another by the same divine law, each wife will come forth in her order and enter with him into his glory “ ("Mormon" Doctrine Plain and Simple, or Leaves from the Tree of Life, by Charles W. Penrose, p.66, 1897, Salt Lake City, UT).

Gordon B. Hinckley Oct. 2007 at the funeral for the second wife of President Howard W. Hunter, the fourteenth President of the LDS Church. The Deseret News reported:
President Hinckley affirmed the eternal nature of the marriage between Sister [Inis] Hunter and the former church president, whose first wife, Claire Jeffs, died after a long battle with Alzheimer's disease and is now buried beside him in the Salt Lake Cemetery. Inis Hunter "will now be laid to rest on the other side," he said. "They were sealed under the authority of the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood for time and for all eternity," he said, Hinckley performed the marriage ceremony for them in the Salt Lake Temple in April 1990. Deseret News, Oct. 22, 2007).

The official LDS Church Handbook of Instruction:
Living Women — A living woman may be sealed to only one husband. . . .
Living Men — If a husband and wife have been sealed and the wife dies, the man may have another woman sealed to him if she is not already sealed. (Church Handbook of Instruction)

Dallin Oaks, Russell Nelson, Harold B. Lee and possibly hundreds of other church men have been sealed to more than one wife. Therefore in principle and in practice, they are polygamists.

The Plan of Salvation and the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage

The Plan of Salvation is perhaps the core doctrine of the Church. It is a roadmap from the Pre-existence to Exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom and a return to Heavenly Father.

There is a simplicity to the Plan: baptism, confirmation, ordination, endowment in the Temple and the attainment of Exaltation by Celestial Marriage or Sealling in the Temple.

Can one be exalted without Celestial Marriage? No.
Can one be sealed without Temple ordinances and covenants? No.

It is a combination of the covenants in the Temple endowment and the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage that allow us the possibility of exaltation.

The endowment is the preparation for the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage. In the endowment, we make covenants of obedience, sacrifice, gospel, chastity and consecration that apply directly to the Plan of salvation.

Arguably the Law of Consecration is the most important because the covenant requires us to dedicate ourselves and all we have to the church. It is perhaps this test of total dedication that qualifies us for the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage.

We gain exaltation by being sealed according to the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage which is Plurality of Wives as outlined in Section 132. The New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage requires us to covenant to the practice of polygamy or plurality of wives.

Plurality of wives is specifically mentioned in the section heading of Section 132. It is not an optional form of marriage. (DC 132:4)


Summary
At this time, the practice of polygamy is in abeyance on earth, but required in the Celestial Kingdom. But the doctrine and principle of plural marriage is still valid.

The New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage which is Plurality of Wives remains canonized scripture of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and plural marriage is authorized by the Church Handbook of Instructions.

Considering that the elements of the Plan of Salvation; baptism, confirmation, ordination and endowment in the Temple are precursors to the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage and its requirement of plurality of wives, my position stands.

The Temple is about Polygamy.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: almostthere ( )
Date: April 17, 2013 10:43AM

Dang, that's really good stuff. Thank you.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: almostthere ( )
Date: April 17, 2013 10:44AM

What did he say to that, anyway?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: rutabaga ( )
Date: April 17, 2013 11:07AM

After 4 years, he is still formulating his response.

Bishop and I have talked on other topics, but he never brought up the temple again.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: honestone ( )
Date: April 21, 2013 10:54AM

Great stuff. Thanks for all of it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: April 17, 2013 11:13AM

I had not put it together like rutabaga did.

However, I have posted many times on RFM about what how temple marriage/ sealing is The New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage, which is is plurality of wives. (D&C 132)

LINK:
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132?lang=eng


I suspect that many members, including me, didn't have that section as background study before going to the temple to be sealed/married nor did I have a clue that I was marrying into plurality of wives.

Of course, the marriage is a contract which is signed on paper. The temple ceremony/ordinance/ritual is a sealing for time and eternity which is a different deal all together.

Of course, it's an Eternal Principle as they say, as polygamy is illegal in all states of the USA and was at the time in ILL when it was first given by Joseph Smith Jr.

It's interesting that this is not a new concept. It's ancient, in fact. Many religions, and customs/traditions in other countries still practice polygamy.

What did the bishop say?
All he has said is: crickets! (hehe)

Of course, he can't argue with canonized scripture!

rutabaga will fill you in more!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2013 11:15AM by SusieQ#1.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: April 19, 2013 12:54PM

Topping - anyone else interested in how these two are intertwined?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Deus Ex Machina ( )
Date: April 21, 2013 05:44AM

funnily enough it was on this very topic that I've had the most movement from my TBM friend - I asked him today if he was ok with the idea that his daughter would be one of many wives her husband was impregnating in the ever after... was he truly ok with her facing an eternity of loneliness, jealousy, of never feeling truly cherished and special to someone she cherished and held special. Was he happy to think of her having to share her husband?

and he said that no, in fact, he really truly struggled with that, and how it would work, and how anyone's father, heavenly or otherwise would have this as their plan, as a type of heaven.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: wine country girl ( )
Date: April 21, 2013 11:31AM

I attended seminary in SLC Utah and was taught this very thing. The doctrine of the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage - Polygamy - has never been repudiated by the church.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: nersibu ( )
Date: April 21, 2013 12:18PM

This thread just brings up one of the biggest sore spots for me - and I'm a man. I can't understand how my tbm wife or any self-respecting, moral female could just put this one on their shelf, and not have it just collapse. How they can live with this doctrine and not be compelled to really research the religion is completely beyond my comprehension.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: April 21, 2013 01:08PM

I have found that this subject is indeed, a real "sore spot" for people.

On the other hand: there seem to be a few who can just accept it as some kind of nebulous concept without any need of any details about how it would work. It becomes some kind of glorified life that is spirit only and they are content to say they will leave it to Heavenly Father as he knows bests, kind of thing.

I think it's contrary to our natures. I think we bond to one partner for life, if possible, and if doesn't work out, for some reason, we can bond to another, but not at the same time.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: albertasaurus ( )
Date: April 21, 2013 01:27PM

I'm gonna be real honest here I have always understood this about polygamy and the temple and the "natural man" in me was always glad I'd never have to experience just one girl.

Even without scriptural support, it is very clear in practice. I've known several men that have been sealed to more than one wife after their wife died. The MTC president and his wife while I was there made a big deal about how they were married for time only b/c both of their spouses had passed on and she was already sealed to someone else. How the hell is that supposed to work in the afterlife??? "Hey man, here's your wife back. I've been keepin' her warm for ya ;) Uh...mind if I have another go...?"


My struggle in understanding it was how could anyone possibly be in a polygamous relationship and it not be about sex. Of course, I always figured I was just a sinner and not nearly as righteous as all those old profits. Haha, turns out somebody was real wrong and it wasn't me. The very little I've seen of those silly polygamy shows on TV leads me to believe that the man in the relationship is not particularly happy haha...It's enough work trying to be everything for one woman, how they manage several is beyond me!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2013 01:29PM by albertasaurus.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: nersibu ( )
Date: April 21, 2013 01:30PM

In my experience, this topic is one with which people consciously choose to remain in ignorance. It's very disquieting for them, even to the point of threatening their ability to maintain their tbm lives, so they just find the quickest easy excuse they can, (God won't require that of me, only those who have enough faith, we don't know all the reasons/answers, etc), go with it, and thus negate any need to know. This planned, active ignorance is precisely what raffle loves to see.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: April 21, 2013 01:34PM

Polygamy was supposed to be about "raising up righteous seed", so there's no way it could NOT be about children, and aside from adoption, the only way to raise up seed is...

The irony is that a study has shown that a society with one man/woman can effectively have more kids than one horndog trying to ive life AND plant baby batter in a bunch of wives.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: A ANON ( )
Date: April 21, 2013 03:16PM

+

"The Temple is about Polygamy." ... and polygamy is all about sex and male control.

Few Mormon men will ever admit it, but the secret, great incentive in their lives is to someday become a God and have endless harems of wives at their bidding!

Sex, money, power, fame -- it's the oldest story on the planet. Mormonism has simply re-packaged this "Perfect Male Fantasy" with God's full approval. That's hard to resist.

Unless, of course, you are a woman who gets the opposite of everything. She shares her husband with millions of wives, competes with all these other women, and is perpetually pregnant.

Here's Brigham Young's perspective as a male Mormon:

"I shall have wives and children by the million, and glory, and riches and power and dominion, and kingdom after kingdom, and reign triumphantly."

-- JoD, V.8 Pgs 178-179


THAT is what the Mormon Temple has ALWAYS been about!

+

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: nersibu ( )
Date: April 21, 2013 03:51PM

Bam! You nailed it. I wish I could get all my tbm relatives to read this thread - especially that BY quote, and explain to me how it's all just dandy and worth giving so much time, money, and deference to.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: rutabaga ( )
Date: April 21, 2013 08:27PM

In the same meeting that I was challenged to write this paper,the bishop gave me a temple recommend, hoping I would reconsider going to the temple. I had no intention of doing so.

Before I turned in the paper the following sunday, I asked DW if she wanted to read it.

I told her sincerely and correctly that she was my one and only and that I didn't want to have to share someday.

DW read it without comment. But her own temple attendance dropped off dramatically. We hadn't attended together for many years.

I paperclipped the temple recommend to the essay, slid it under his door and waited for the blowback. It never came.

DW seems okay with my decision and reasoning. And when I phased out of garments a few months later, she didn't say a word.

I guess I'm lucky!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: April 21, 2013 11:13PM

rutabaga is an example of setting the scene, then playing out his role, getting through scene one, and scene two, and intermission! Now he's onto the final act.
Break a leg! :-)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: rutabaga ( )
Date: April 22, 2013 10:23AM

Thanks SusieQ#1

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Screen Name: 
Your Email (optional): 
Subject: 
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
  ******   **     **  **    **   *******   ********  
 **    **   **   **   ***   **  **     **  **     ** 
 **          ** **    ****  **  **         **     ** 
 **           ***     ** ** **  ********   **     ** 
 **          ** **    **  ****  **     **  **     ** 
 **    **   **   **   **   ***  **     **  **     ** 
  ******   **     **  **    **   *******   ********